Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

So,it seems all the arguments against a possible Torso Ripper are just personal opinions, and not facts.

Which is very much what Ripperology amounts to on many an occasion.

The odd thing is that a situation has been created where it is up to those who speak for a single killer to prove the case, whereas all logic speaks for how it should be the other way around; when two series of murders occur in the same area and at the same time, then anyone who speaks for two killers being the logical solution are the ones who have a case to prove.

If the series had been totally dissimilar, then such a case could be made, but when the damage done to the victims include so many and so specific similarities, it becomes a farcical exercise to try and fit the single pair of shoes available onto four feet - or more!

[Fisherman]

Yes, Abby, I think circumstance is key here. Overall, the killer was interested in dehumanising and deconstructing his prey, whether it was through mutilation, organ removal or dismemberment.

There you go, Harry; I have said before that I believe that Simon Wood almost got the title of his book spot on. Instead of "Deconstructing Jack" it ought to have been called "Jack deconstructing", because that is exactly what I think the murders in the combined series were about.

[Abby Normal]

Yes, Abby, I think circumstance is key here. Overall, the killer was interested in dehumanising and deconstructing his prey, whether it was through mutilation, organ removal or dismemberment.

Thanks Harry
and yes I agree. I think Fish has a theory about why and is more specific but it seems he is keeping that close to his vest for now.

[Abby Normal]

This reminds me a bit about the Golden State killer, whos been getting a lot of air time lately on TV shows. For the longest time it was thought that there where two different serial offenders(each having their own nickname) at work due to different location and MO (sound familiar?).

However DNA linked the East Area Rapist and Original Night Stalker as definitively the same man.

same thing could be going on here with torsoripper.

[Abby Normal]

Then theres serial killer Randy Kraft who sometimes mutilated and sometimes only dismembered. Whos killings also spanned two decades.

[Abby Normal]

There was a boy(I forgot his name) around the time of the torso/ripper murders who was killed outside of London. He was extensively mutilated AND dismemebered. I know the victimology is off, but has anyone ever looked into the possibility, or similarities, of this case and torso/ripper??

[Fisherman]

There was a boy(I forgot his name) around the time of the torso/ripper murders who was killed outside of London. He was extensively mutilated AND dismemebered. I know the victimology is off, but has anyone ever looked into the possibility, or similarities, of this case and torso/ripper??

John Gill? If it´s him, then I believe A P Wolf looked into that case with a view of it possibly being connected. I myself discount it on account of a number of matters - the sex, the fact that the corpse was hidden away and it was in Bradford. I can´t remember the exact extent of the damage, but it was a horrific case.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m looking for opinions here. Jack killed and displayed the bodies in grotesque, sexual positions. He found his victim, went to a quiet spot and pounced quickly then fled. Why the difference for TK?

No matter how much I read the posts here I just can’t get past these facts. When cutting and hacking around inside a corpse I would have thought that some similarities would have been almost inevitable. I doubt if you could tell who performed one piece of surgery from another so how can we be certain about random hacking? I still can’t think other than the dissimilarities far outweigh the similarities.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks JoshThat paints a picture of two long strips running up the midline of the abdomen, extending from the buttock to the umbilicus or just beyond, the two strips together perhaps being some 5" wide (which would encompass the mons veneris and labia majora as described).
If the killer had been cutting along the pelvic bone, the resultant pieces of flesh would have been much wider due to the broad, shallow nature of the female pelvis - more "slab-like" than "slip-like", I'd suggest.

True, but that's the minimum size the slips could have been. They could also, between them, have comprised the entire front of the abdominal wall, from pubis via hip crests to sternum. Which might easily make them twice as long as their widest extent.

Besides, I'm sure Hebbert would have mentioned that the "slips" had extended as far as the pelvic bone, had this been the case.

It would be handy for us if he had. But if you were attempting to remove an enlarged uterus and other internal organs from a body, would you widen your initial incision just a little bit, or as much as possible?

[Abby Normal]

John Gill? If it´s him, then I believe A P Wolf looked into that case with a view of it possibly being connected. I myself discount it on account of a number of matters - the sex, the fact that the corpse was hidden away and it was in Bradford. I can´t remember the exact extent of the damage, but it was a horrific case.

yup that's it. Thanks Fish!I think the victimology probably rules him out.
the concealment is another big negative.

[Fisherman]

I’m looking for opinions here. Jack killed and displayed the bodies in grotesque, sexual positions. He found his victim, went to a quiet spot and pounced quickly then fled. Why the difference for TK?

Because some of the murders were performed at a safe bolthole, while others were more brazen street attacks. Some strikes afforded the possibility to work on the bodies at leisure and others gave en adrenalin rush - and he liked both.
Just a suggestion, of course - but the fact remains that we MUST be able to resolve the matter if the differences, since the similarities are quite clear in their implications.

Once more, I must push that point: It is NOT the differences that are of interest here, it is the similarities. If you can accept that two simultaneously working serial killers in the same area both were into uterus-snatching, abdomen-cutting from sternum to pelvis, cutting necks, taking out hearts and lungs, carving away the abdominal walls in sections, then fine. It´s just that history cannot provide something that looks remotely like a parallel. It CAN however, offer many examples of serialists who have employed different methods of killing people. Make of that what you want, Herlock.

No matter how much I read the posts here I just can’t get past these facts. When cutting and hacking around inside a corpse I would have thought that some similarities would have been almost inevitable. I doubt if you could tell who performed one piece of surgery from another so how can we be certain about random hacking? I still can’t think other than the dissimilarities far outweigh the similarities.

Yes, hack around in a two bodies and the similarity of hacking inside the bodies.
But taking out a uterus is not hacking around. It is a very focused matter.
Taking away the abdominal wall in sections is extremely rare and no example of random hacking either.
Nor is the taking out of the heart and lungs.

This goes way beyond hacking, Herlock. You need to weigh that in.

[Abby Normal]

I’m looking for opinions here. Jack killed and displayed the bodies in grotesque, sexual positions. He found his victim, went to a quiet spot and pounced quickly then fled. Why the difference for TK?

No matter how much I read the posts here I just can’t get past these facts. When cutting and hacking around inside a corpse I would have thought that some similarities would have been almost inevitable. I doubt if you could tell who performed one piece of surgery from another so how can we be certain about random hacking? I still can’t think other than the dissimilarities far outweigh the similarities.

HI HS

I’m looking for opinions here. Jack killed and displayed the bodies in grotesque, sexual positions. He found his victim, went to a quiet spot and pounced quickly then fled. Why the difference for TK?

I'm not so sure there was overt displaying here on the rippers part. How they were found could be a result of the positions he left them after he was done. However, the fact that he didn't try to cover up, conceal or hide the bodies, and did leave them in these positions show that he definitely was going for shock value to be found.

same as the torso IMHO. the places and how the parts were left seem to have special significance also.

No matter how much I read the posts here I just can’t get past these facts. When cutting and hacking around inside a corpse I would have thought that some similarities would have been almost inevitable.

for me the fact that they were both cutting and hacking around inside a corpse at all, post mortem, on females with a knife, is enough to tip the scales. All the other similarities are just bonus.

I still can’t think other than the dissimilarities far outweigh the
similarities

I got no problem with this HS. I just think the opposite.
There are big differences, no doubt, and I acknowledge that. but for me the similarities outweigh the differences.

[Abby Normal]

Because some of the murders were performed at a safe bolthole, while others were more brazen street attacks. Some strikes afforded the possibility to work on the bodies at leisure and others gave en adrenalin rush - and he liked both.
Just a suggestion, of course - but the fact remains that we MUST be able to resolve the matter if the differences, since the similarities are quite clear in their implications.

Once more, I must push that point: It is NOT the differences that are of interest here, it is the similarities. If you can accept that two simultaneously working serial killers in the same area both were into uterus-snatching, abdomen-cutting from sternum to pelvis, cutting necks, taking out hearts and lungs, carving away the abdominal walls in sections, then fine. It´s just that history cannot provide something that looks remotely like a parallel. It CAN however, offer many examples of serialists who have employed different methods of killing people. Make of that what you want, Herlock.



Yes, hack around in a two bodies and the similarity of hacking inside the bodies.
But taking out a uterus is not hacking around. It is a very focused matter.
Taking away the abdominal wall in sections is extremely rare and no example of random hacking either.
Nor is the taking out of the heart and lungs.

This goes way beyond hacking, Herlock. You need to weigh that in.

great post fish, totally agree.

[Joshua Rogan]

As I keep pointing out, the 1873 victim had the shoulders and thighs SAWN through - but the knees and elbows, for example, were neatly disarticulated. Disarticulating knees and elbows are harder than disarticulating shoulders and thigs. My contention is that one of the dismemberment methods was part of him satisfying his paraphilia, and when that was satisfied, he simple took care of the rest in order to clear his premises of the corpse.

What makes you say that, Fish?

[Abby Normal]

I’m looking for opinions here. Jack killed and displayed the bodies in grotesque, sexual positions. He found his victim, went to a quiet spot and pounced quickly then fled. Why the difference for TK?

No matter how much I read the posts here I just can’t get past these facts. When cutting and hacking around inside a corpse I would have thought that some similarities would have been almost inevitable. I doubt if you could tell who performed one piece of surgery from another so how can we be certain about random hacking? I still can’t think other than the dissimilarities far outweigh the similarities.

another thing HS
Alot has been made in reference to the different locations, and I see that. but the pinchin torso was found in the ripper location. This seems to get forgotten but to me its another link.