Same motive = same killer

[Abby Normal]

The trouble is that you and the other clowns just do want to accept the fact that the torsos were not all homicide victims, for to do so would seriously damage your misguided beliefs and that's what they are misguided.

There is more than one explanation for the deaths, more than one explanation for the mutilations, and more than one explanation for body parts to be found missing from the torsos. So take the blinkers off and check them out.

Dr Biggs is a modern day forensic expert and I think I will accept what he says as against the personal opinions of the Billy Smarts Circus troupe when it comes to medical knowledge and opinions.

The purpose of a coroners court is to determine a cause of death from the "evidence" put before them in some case the doctors evidence may have swayed a jury but at the end of the day what they said was nothing more than guess work as Dr Biggs has stated.

So until you or anyone else can "conclusively" show evidence (not similarities") which unquestionably proves that all the torsos were as a direct result of homicide I would suggest you zip it.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, I hit the quote function and responded without reading a word of your post only to say, I’m done wasting my time with you.
Go Sell some ripper t shirts and coffe mugs.

[Sam Flynn]

Why does everything have to be exactly the same with you?.

It doesn't, but if we are to posit any linkages there has to be a discernable link in the first place! There were a number of torso victims, and not one of them had the flesh on their limbs denuded like Kelly. The torso killer(s) simply cut straight through the flesh and removed the liimbs, as most dismemberers do.

[Fisherman]

It doesn't, but if we are to posit any linkages there has to be a discernable link in the first place! There were a number of torso victims, and not one of them had the flesh on their limbs denuded like Kelly. The torso killer(s) simply cut straight through the flesh and removed the liimbs, as most dismemberers do.

But he did a lot more cutting than so, did he not, Gareth? It was not just about chopping of limbs, was it? And "most dismemberers" dismember for practical reasons only - but this man damaged the bodies in a manner that is not compatible with practical precautions only, did he not?

[Harry D]

And that's the point Harry, it's possible; just as most stuff posted on here is, that is it cannot be definitively shown to be impossible.

That's right. That's why I said a "definite possibility".

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, I hit the quote function and responded without reading a word of your post only to say, I’m done wasting my time with you.
Go Sell some ripper t shirts and coffe mugs.

Well I am likely to get more sense out of an inanimate object than I am from trying to converse with you.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

It doesn't, but if we are to posit any linkages there has to be a discernable link in the first place! There were a number of torso victims, and not one of them had the flesh on their limbs denuded like Kelly. The torso killer(s) simply cut straight through the flesh and removed the liimbs, as most dismemberers do.

Hi sam
Well at this point it’s obvious you are just completely ignoring the facts of the damage inflicted on the torso victims that is well above and beyond what is needed for dismemberment. They all had post mortem mutilations beyond removal of limbs, which has been pointed out to you more times to count. Why you continue to refuse to acknowledge this is flabbergasting to say the least.

And RE your statement on none of the torsos having flesh denuded like Kelly, but Jerry has just stated in a recent post that the torso series does have this also, and I’m waiting for his response on which ones.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm not ignoring anything. What I'm not doing is generalising beyond the bounds of usefulness. Believe me, if I perceived any significant, or even mildly interesting parallels between the series, I'd concede the point. However, I see no such parallels at all.

[Fisherman]

I'm not ignoring anything. What I'm not doing is generalising beyond the bounds of usefulness. Believe me, if I perceived any significant, or even mildly interesting parallels between the series, I'd concede the point. However, I see no such parallels at all.

If that is true, it is absolutely mindboggling. How is not the taking away of the uterus a "interesting parallel", for example...? Present with Chapman, Kelly, Eddowes, Jackson and very possibly the Whitehall torso.

Just how common a trait with serialists do you think that is, Gareth?

And how is it not "mildly interesting" that the killers - both of them as per you - cut all the way from sternum to pelvis?

And of course, how many serialists have you identified who took away the abdominal walls of their victims in large flaps?

Nobody´s contesting that there are differences, but to parallel your take on things maybe we should do just that...? "Nah, they´re all exactly the same, there is not even a mildly interesting dissimilarity between the torso victims and the Ripper victims. It´s the exact same stuff."

That´s where we need to go to keep an even pace with you. And that IS mildly interesting. Or fascinating. Or mindboggling. Call it what you want.

[Elamarna]

Hi el
Well to me “large flaps” is not vague at all. I mean that’s exactly how the doctors described it.

So you have a killer in Chapman Kelly and Jackson who having murdered their prostitute victims, probably rusing them as a MO to get them to a secluded place, is now conducting post mortem mutilation which involves gaining access to the inside of the abdomen to take out internal organs by cutting away the stomach flesh in large flaps.

I mean cmon. If you don’t see major similarities there well so be it. But I do, in spades.

Abby

The problem for me is flaps is not a medical term, it can mean different things to different people.
Are they horizontal or vertical? In Jackson they are more like thin strips running vertically .

Yes there are superficial similarities but that's my issue, superficial not specific.

You feel different, I have no issue at all with that.


Steve

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi Abby it's probably a matter of interpretation whether the victims parts where displayed. Dr Bond - The viscera were found in various parts viz: the uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the right foot, the liver between the feet, the intestines by the right side and the spleen by the left side of the body. The flaps removed from the abdomen and thighs were on a table. And from the FBI Profile - The victims were left in the open and on display in an effort to further degrade them and shock those who discovered the bodies. The parts of MJK could have been left just where the killer placed them, or he could have been doing his upmost to shock people. I don't suppose we will ever know.
.

[Sam Flynn]

Abby

The problem for me is flaps is not a medical term, it can mean different things to different people... Yes there are superficial similarities but that's my issue, superficial not specific.

Indeed so, Steve. In terms of the specifics, it's like I said the other day:

1. Jackson - the only one of the torso series to be so treated - had two "long slips (strips)" of flesh cut from the middle of her abdomen, which quite possibly had something to do with the fact that she was pregnant;

2. Chapman had a chunk of flesh removed in three flaps taken from one side of her belly, to enable the killer to pull out her intestines and to remove her uterus and bladder;

3. Kelly had three large slabs of flesh cut from her entire abdomen, completely laying it open from flank to flank, to enable her killer to pull out her intestines and to methodically remove the entire contents of her abdomen, and (later) to cut up through her diaphragm in order to remove her heart.

These are very different approaches, and what happened to Jackson does not compare with what happened to Chapman and Kelly.

[Fisherman]

Abby

The problem for me is flaps is not a medical term, it can mean different things to different people.
Are they horizontal or vertical? In Jackson they are more like thin strips running vertically .

Yes there are superficial similarities but that's my issue, superficial not specific.

You feel different, I have no issue at all with that.


Steve

It does not matter if they ran vertically or horizontally, Steve - they are nevertheless examples of large portions of flesh being cut away from the abdominal wall. And regardless of whay they looked like, that is something that is so totally weird and unheard of that the assumption must be made that the originator was the same.

I notice that you now actively choose to join Hareth in saying that the Jackson flaps were "strips" and you even add "thin" to that term.Thereby, you look away from how Hebbert ALSO described them as "large flaps" - the exact same term used for the flasp in the Chapman case and the Kelly case.

It applies that the Chapman and Kelly flaps could also have been described by Hebbert as slips (which I think is the term he used), we just don´t know.

But we actually DO know that since the practice is rarer than hen´s teeth, the only reasonable guess is that the killer was one and the same, and the flaps are therefore more likely to resemble each other than not.

Overall, though, that question is of very small importance. Killers who cut away the abdomen in flaps are ridiculously rare. Killers who do so and add uterus evisceration are even rarer. Killers who did that, together with cutting the abdomen from sternum to pelvis in Victorian London are so rare as to be only one.

Ever.

The denial of this is a lip gymnastic and absolutley nothing else.

[Jon Guy]

It does not matter if they ran vertically or horizontally, Steve - they are nevertheless examples of large portions of flesh being cut away from the abdominal wall. And regardless of whay they looked like, that is something that is so totally weird and unheard of that the assumption must be made that the originator was the same.

I notice that you now actively choose to join Hareth in saying that the Jackson flaps were "strips" and you even add "thin" to that term.Thereby, you look away from how Hebbert ALSO described them as "large flaps" - the exact same term used for the flasp in the Chapman case and the Kelly case.

It applies that the Chapman and Kelly flaps could also have been described by Hebbert as slips (which I think is the term he used), we just don´t know.

But we actually DO know that since the practice is rarer than hen´s teeth, the only reasonable guess is that the killer was one and the same, and the flaps are therefore more likely to resemble each other than not.

Overall, though, that question is of very small importance. Killers who cut away the abdomen in flaps are ridiculously rare. Killers who do so and add uterus evisceration are even rarer. Killers who did that, together with cutting the abdomen from sternum to pelvis in Victorian London are so rare as to be only one.

Ever.

The denial of this is a lip gymnastic and absolutley nothing else.

Hi Christer

Is there anything about the Jackson throat cut that bears similarities to the Chapman/ Kelly throat cut ?
Any knife marks on the bone around the neck ?
Forgive me for not looking it up but I know you will have the answer to hand.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Jon,

"At this point Dr. Phillips said he would answer the coroner’s question. He did not see any similarity in the cutting of the legs, but the division of the neck and the attempt to disarticulate the bones of the spine were very similar. The savagery shown in Dorset-street, however, far exceeded anything in the present case. In the former case the mutilations were most wanton, whereas, in this case, they appeared to have been made for the purpose of disposing of the body."

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,

"At this point Dr. Phillips said he would answer the coroner’s question. He did not see any similarity in the cutting of the legs, but the division of the neck and the attempt to disarticulate the bones of the spine were very similar. The savagery shown in Dorset-street, however, far exceeded anything in the present case. In the former case the mutilations were most wanton, whereas, in this case, they appeared to have been made for the purpose of disposing of the body."

Thanks JR !!

So, Dr Phillips actually points out the similarities between Jackson and Dorset Street.

Blimey