Same motive = same killer

[Abby Normal]

To try dispel once and for all this misguided belief that you Christer and several others have that the Thames Torsos were as a result of homicides, and were all the work of the same killer who killed the women in Whitechapel. I have set out below brief details of these torso victims which clearly show that at the inquests there was no evidence put forward to suggest any were murdered, despite verdicts of wilful murder being recorded in 2 cases.

I have also included extracts from Dr Biggs a modern day forensic pathologist who has studied the post mortem and inquest testimony, given by the Victorian Doctors.

1873 Torso
No specific cause of death identified
Verdict- Found dead

Whitehall Torso Sept 1888
No specific cause of death identified
Verdict- Found dead

Elizabeth Jackson June 1888
No specific cause of death identified
Verdict Wilful murder by jury !!!!!!!!!!!!!

How could a coroner allow a verdict of wilful murder, when there is no specific cause of death identified in the proceedings? The verdict should have been found dead/open verdict

Pinchin St Torso Sept 11th 1889
No specific cause of death identified
Verdict Wilful murder by jury !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I say again, how could a coroner allow a verdict of wilful murder, when there is no specific cause of death identified in the proceedings? The verdict should have been found dead/open verdict

Dr Biggs comments from reviewing inquest testimony on this specific torso

“I am also perplexed by their cause of death! ‘Syncope’ is just a word denoting fainting or collapse. In the olden days, words such as ‘exhaustion’, ‘shock’ or ‘syncope’ were used as a ‘cause of death’ and were not questioned. We couldn’t get away with that now! It sounds like they don’t actually know the cause of death, but they are reluctant to admit it. These days it is much safer to say that the cause of death is unascertained unless you are sure of something you can back up”

Dr Biggs general observations on all the torsos

"If you look at a series of unrelated dismembered bodies, you will see some startling similarities between them. This does not mean you can conclude that they were carried out in the same way / with the same tool(s) / by the same person(s). When disposing of a body people (even without prior knowledge or instruction) tend to adopt very similar strategies for dividing up the body to make it more manageable for concealment / transportation. The finished results end up looking very similar!"

"Despite there being apparently a lot of information about these torsos, there is actually little pathological information to determine how they died (or when) so I can’t shed any light on that side of things, I’m afraid. Dismemberment isn’t that uncommon, and when it is seen it is usually (but not always!) the result of an attempt to conceal a homicide. Abortionists tended not to worry so much about concealing the fact that death occurred, but just made themselves scarce, so they couldn’t be linked to the woman after she was found (intact). However, I guess that if they carried out the abortions within their own property and the victims died, then I can understand the need to dispose of the body by dismemberment"

Dr Biggs full assessment on both the Whitechapel Murders, and The Torsos can be found in my book “Jack the Ripper-The Real Truth”

http://www.trevormarriott.co.uk/jack-ripper-real-truth/

LOL! God your a buffoon.

[Sam Flynn]

If Jack and The Torso Killer were one and the same why no dismemberment of Kelly?

Indeed, and why no extensive evisceration/mutilation of the Torso victims, Jackson included? If the Torso murderer(s) had the time and privacy to completely disarticulate their victims, they surely had every opportunity to completely mutilate and eviscerate them, also. Yet they didn't.

[jerryd]

1873 Torso
No specific cause of death identified
Verdict- Found dead

Trevor,

Regarding the 1873 torso to set the record straight.

Medical opinions agree that the body was cut up but a short time before it was committed to the water; that death was caused by a blow on the right temple—a blow, the scalp shows, hard enough to have crushed in the skull, and so to have caused instant death, and that the parts first found had been in the water but a few hours.

There was a specific cause of death identified and there was also a Wilful murder verdict in this case. Also, regarding the Pinchin torso, Dr. Phillips was of the opinion that the final cuts to the neck to remove the head had covered up the orginal death cut to the neck. He came to this conclusion based on the amount of blood loss in the body and that the loss was probably from the neck as the other areas of the body were concluded not to be the cause of the blood loss.

Hopefully this isn't the same error riddled info you pass on to Dr. Biggs.

[Abby Normal]

Trevor,

Regarding the 1873 torso to set the record straight.

Medical opinions agree that the body was cut up but a short time before it was committed to the water; that death was caused by a blow on the right temple—a blow, the scalp shows, hard enough to have crushed in the skull, and so to have caused instant death, and that the parts first found had been in the water but a few hours.

There was a specific cause of death identified and there was also a Wilful murder verdict in this case. Also, regarding the Pinchin torso, Dr. Phillips was of the opinion that the final cuts to the neck to remove the head had covered up the orginal death cut to the neck. He came to this conclusion based on the amount of blood loss in the body and that the loss was probably from the neck as the other areas of the body were concluded not to be the cause of the blood loss.

Hopefully this isn't the same error riddled info you pass on to Dr. Biggs.

Bingo Jerry
And with Biggs banging on at length meaninglessly about botched abortions when that concept was destroyed beyond all doubt along time ago just exemplifies what little Biggs knows about the case in general and what he knows is through the opaque filter of Marriott rendering his opinion worthless in this.

And this gem. dismemberment victims by the nature of dismemberment will look similar—hahahaha. Earth shattering.

[jerryd]

Bingo Jerry
And with Biggs banging on at length meaninglessly about botched abortions when that concept was destroyed beyond all doubt along time ago just exemplifies what little Biggs knows about the case in general and what he knows is through the opaque filter of Marriott rendering his opinion worthless in this.

Gee dismemberment victims by the nature of dismemberment will look similar—hahahaha. Earth shattering.

Abby,

It appears the jury had enough info to conclude most of these MURDERS weren't botched abortions. Are we to believe the Whitehall victim got all prettied up, complete with a wire dress form to attend her abortion?

[jerryd]

If Jack and The Torso Killer were one and the same why no dismemberment of Kelly?

Hip joint opened and ready for removal. The only thing missing is the disarticulation of the joint. As Abby pointed out, how does he now carry that large piece of her body down the road? Notice the large part missing? The thigh. The thighs of other victims of the torso series were also removed.

[Darryl Kenyon]

He didn't need to carry the femur etc down the street with him. He could have cut it out and displayed it in a grotesque way to make a statement, much like he did with the breasts.

[Fisherman]

I don't know what you mean, but I think I can work it out. The short answer is that what happened to Nichols is very similar in time, place and execution to what happened to Chapman. What happened to both women is dissimilar to what happened to Jackson.

In terms of damages done to the bodies, though, Jackson and Chapman have much more in common than Nichols and Chapman, plus the surplus damage inbetween Jackson and Chapman that Nichols lack, is the taking of the uterus and the cutting of the abdominal flaps; far more rare and odd than the cutting to the neck and abdomen that all three have in common.

Once we know that, time and place is of a very small importance in comparison. And the time and place is absolutely no obstacle for any of these three cases to be related to each other - on the contrary.

[Fisherman]

If Jack and The Torso Killer were one and the same why no dismemberment of Kelly?

If the dismemberment in the torso cases was performed to enable carrying body parts away from a bolthole that could be connected to the killer, then there was no such need in the Kelly case.

That is the obvious explanation, but overall, I believe there´s more to it than so, since I think the dismemberment was at least to a degree part of the killers agenda, something he did because he wanted to.

In Kellys case, I think he worked to an agenda that did not involve dismemberment, and that dismemberment would actually ruin what he was after.

[Fisherman]

Indeed, and why no extensive evisceration/mutilation of the Torso victims, Jackson included? If the Torso murderer(s) had the time and privacy to completely disarticulate their victims, they surely had every opportunity to completely mutilate and eviscerate them, also. Yet they didn't.

But Gareth, instead of trying to push the point that all murders would have looked the same if the killer had the opportunity to accomplish that, why not take a look at what we have and imagine that the murders were never intended to be all the same. That is where the evidence from the sites leads us.

Why was not Chapmans face damaged, the way Kellys was? He seemingly had the time.

Why not take out organs from the Pinchin Street woman? He seemingly had the time.

Because he chose not to do it. It may well be that simple. He had different scenarios in mind.

[Fisherman]

He didn't need to carry the femur etc down the street with him. He could have cut it out and displayed it in a grotesque way to make a statement, much like he did with the breasts.

He "made a statement" with the breasts, the liver, the uterus, the flesh from the buttocks, the abdominal flaps and quite a few more odds and ends. It is completely impossible to say whether he would have thought that the statement would have been improved by dismembering the femur and displaying it.
I think much of the horror the scene in Millers Court conveys lies in the fact that the body was NOT dismembered. If a pile of parts, much like in the Salamanca case, was what was put on display, it would not have made me feel as uneasy as the "intact" body with all that damage does.

But maybe that´s just me, of course.

[Sam Flynn]

Hip joint opened and ready for removal. The only thing missing is the disarticulation of the joint. As Abby pointed out, how does he now carry that large piece of her body down the road? Notice the large part missing? The thigh. The thighs of other victims of the torso series were also removed.

And the Torso victims were all filleted before their limbs were cut off. Not.

[Fisherman]

And still, all the naysayers do is to point out that there were differences. We know that.

It´s explaining and accounting for the similarities that is called for. Who will do that?

[Trevor Marriott]

Bingo Jerry
And with Biggs banging on at length meaninglessly about botched abortions when that concept was destroyed beyond all doubt along time ago just exemplifies what little Biggs knows about the case in general and what he knows is through the opaque filter of Marriott rendering his opinion worthless in this.

And this gem. dismemberment victims by the nature of dismemberment will look similar—hahahaha. Earth shattering.

The trouble is that you and the other clowns just do want to accept the fact that the torsos were not all homicide victims, for to do so would seriously damage your misguided beliefs and that's what they are misguided.

There is more than one explanation for the deaths, more than one explanation for the mutilations, and more than one explanation for body parts to be found missing from the torsos. So take the blinkers off and check them out.

Dr Biggs is a modern day forensic expert and I think I will accept what he says as against the personal opinions of the Billy Smarts Circus troupe when it comes to medical knowledge and opinions.

The purpose of a coroners court is to determine a cause of death from the "evidence" put before them in some case the doctors evidence may have swayed a jury but at the end of the day what they said was nothing more than guess work as Dr Biggs has stated.

So until you or anyone else can "conclusively" show evidence (not similarities") which unquestionably proves that all the torsos were as a direct result of homicide I would suggest you zip it.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

He didn't need to carry the femur etc down the street with him. He could have cut it out and displayed it in a grotesque way to make a statement, much like he did with the breasts.

And let's not forget that Kelly's killer de-fleshed not only her thighs, but also her entire abdomen. He also cut great chunks of flesh from the chest and ribcage, and damaged the face and arms to a considerable degree.

Now, THIS is what you call a "mutilation murder".