Same motive = same killer

[jerryd]

Strange how different the stories are. I guess we should go by the inquest?

Well, that's kinda why I thought it was interesting. The inquest opened on October 8th. That's when Wildbore and Brown gave their testimony. Your report from the Central News is from October 3rd? It sounds like their "informant" may have been Wildbore himself. Maybe he did tell them (Central News) it smelled when they interviewed him and changed his story at the inquest? Why? He realized it didn't reflect well on him if there was a horrible smell coming from the parcel and he didn't say anything about it the previous two times he looked at it.

[RockySullivan]

Are you positive that the arm didnt fit with the torso because of the shoulder blade? At first they thought the two arms and torso were related because they were removed in an unskilled manor. Is it possible they did fit? Is there any report that states the whitehall torso was wrapped in a canvas?

[Robert St Devil]

That's very strange about the dead child i wonder how old he was? do you guys feel the baby in the jar found around the time time of the discovery of Jackson's parts is unrelated to the case?

Was it found in a jar, Rocky? If it had been found in a brown paper parcel, i'd say yes.

I'm like most Ripperologist who've considered that Jack may have been a child killer; however, I am cautious not to attribute every murder of the late 80s to the killer. I found two likelihoods when it came to the discovery of dead newborns. The first likelihood, an ashamed young mother was responsible, usually hiding the dead infant somewhere near to the homestead (eg barrel, &c.). The second likelihood was the discovery of a brown paper parcel containing the dead newborn, and these parcels were found in manners & places similar to the Torso Killer's method of leaving body parts in public places. If you have BNA and advance search "brown parcel" between 87 and 88, there are many different instances of people discovering newborns that had been stillborn or killed recent to their births; in nearly every case, the poor child had been covered in a piece of cloth (eg flannel, underwear, &c.) & tied up in brown paper parcel and deposited in a public place. Sometimes the child had met with violence.

There are more but here are a few of the dates of dead newborns found wrapped in brown parcel paper:
Feb 1888 infant found underneath the seat of a tramcar
Apr 1888 infant found in a hedge, Millhill House, Newbattle, Dalkeith
May 1888 infant found on Liverpool tramcar
July 1888 infant found at Hampstead cemetary
Sep 1888 infant found floating near Com Mill bridge
Nov 1888 infant found floating in water near Russell Street, Darlington

Since each case has this brown paper parcel in common, it gives me the impression that this activity may have been the preferred disposal method of a midwife operation who serviced women who did not want their newborn child. Most of the children were not cut to pieces. Could it have been that occasionally a woman may have died during the procedure, and she was cut into pieces that were roughly the same size as these infants, and her parts were disposed with the child?

[RockySullivan]

Was it found in a jar, Rocky? If it had been found in a brown paper parcel, i'd say yes.

I'm like most Ripperologist who've considered that Jack may have been a child killer; however, I am cautious not to attribute every murder of the late 80s to the killer. I found two likelihoods when it came to the discovery of dead newborns. The first likelihood, an ashamed young mother was responsible, usually hiding the dead infant somewhere near to the homestead (eg barrel, &c.). The second likelihood was the discovery of a brown paper parcel containing the dead newborn, and these parcels were found in manners & places similar to the Torso Killer's method of leaving body parts in public places. If you have BNA and advance search "brown parcel" between 87 and 88, there are many different instances of people discovering newborns that had been stillborn or killed recent to their births; in nearly every case, the poor child had been covered in a piece of cloth (eg flannel, underwear, &c.) & tied up in brown paper parcel and deposited in a public place. Sometimes the child had met with violence.

There are more but here are a few of the dates of dead newborns found wrapped in brown parcel paper:
Feb 1888 infant found underneath the seat of a tramcar
Apr 1888 infant found in a hedge, Millhill House, Newbattle, Dalkeith
May 1888 infant found on Liverpool tramcar
July 1888 infant found at Hampstead cemetary
Sep 1888 infant found floating near Com Mill bridge
Nov 1888 infant found floating in water near Russell Street, Darlington

Since each case has this brown paper parcel in common, it gives me the impression that this activity may have been the preferred disposal method of a midwife operation who serviced women who did not want their newborn child. Most of the children were not cut to pieces. Could it have been that occasionally a woman may have died during the procedure, and she was cut into pieces that were roughly the same size as these infants, and her parts were disposed with the child?

Robert thank you it was a parcel wasn't it? I'm sorry I need to read the report again. The dates and location i thought lined up too well with Liz Jackson although the age supposedly didnt match i am starting to lose all faith in the opinion of these doctors. But it's very interesting that parceling this was way was the method used by midwifes to dispose of the fetuses! Incredible find!

Now what was the story again about the woman who was an abortionist and lived in Backchurch lane?

[jerryd]

You were right the first time, Rocky. The fetus was found in a pickling jar.

[Robert St Devil]

Sorry, Rock, I didn't mean for the question to be asked cynically, I honestly didn't know, haha, lot of details still jumbled up. The part about the midwife was just my speculation. What drew my interest, obviously, was the brown parcel paper and the disposal of the newborns in public locations and the similarities to the Torso Killer's method. One article went so far as to report how neatly the parcel had been tied up, but that wasn,'t always the case.

[jerryd]

Many of the torso parts were wrapped in clothing (see Elizabeth Jackson's Ulster coat). The thigh of Elizabeth Jackson was wrapped in the pocket of what was thought to be part of a costermonger's apron. I'll have to look back to see how many of the parts (87-89) were actually parceled with paper. The Pinchin torso was found naked save part of a torn chemise.

[Robert St Devil]

The child found under a seat on the Liverpool tramcar was wrapped in a piece of cotton cloth and brown parcel paper. (May 88)
The child found at the Board school, Deptford Lower-Road, was wrapped in a diaper napkin.
The child found at Archbishop Holgate's School was wrapped in flannel and brown paper. {"The parcel was nealy wrapt and sewn up with fine string" York Herald, 16 Jun 88}
The child found in Old Church Lane, York was found wrapped in black corded-silk skirt. (Jul 88)
The child left at Hampstead cemetery was wrapped in linen. (Jul 88)
The child found on the London and NorthWestern train from broad street was wrapped up in rags and brown paper. (Aug 88)
The child found floating near Corn-Mill Bridge, Knottingly, was wrapped in woman's cotton drawers and brown paper and tied up with a string. (Sep 88)

[RockySullivan]

interesting thank you devil. so was the whitehall torso actually wrapped in course cloth (canvas?) and bound tightly with cord/string? I read an article the other day that stated as much

[RockySullivan]

daily gazette middlesborough 10/8/88 talks abut lily vass and says police have traced the dress maker to a west end proprietor. anyoner have the forgfotten ripper ebook who can do grabs?

[RockySullivan]

Dr Bond said the Pimlico arm absolutely fit the the whitehall torso

[Joshua Rogan]

daily gazette middlesborough 10/8/88 talks abut lily vass and says police have traced the dress maker to a west end proprietor. anyoner have the forgfotten ripper ebook who can do grabs?

"One officer states that the maker of the silk skirt in which the body was found has been discovered. The maker is the proprietor of a West End establishment. Having discovered so much, it is probable the person who ordered and received the skirt will be reached. Thus some sensational development of the case is anticipated."

[Joshua Rogan]

Western Daily Press 9th Oct;

"Inspector Marshall, who has charge of the case, said the piece of dress in which the body was wrapped was of broche satin cloth, of Bradford manufacture, but of an old pattern - probably three years ago. It was a rather common material, costing about sixpence-half-penny a yard when new. There was a six-inch flounce at the bottom of the dress."

[Fisherman]

This thread is bumped up, and the discussion from an Alice MacKenzie thread is moved over. How do we explain the similarities inbetween Chapman, Kelly and Liz Jackson, unless we accept that the killer was one and the same?

[Sam Flynn]

How do we explain the similarities inbetween Chapman, Kelly and Liz Jackson, unless we accept that the killer was one and the same?

How do we explain the similarities? You're presuming that the "similarities" you see (cut throat, abdominal flaps) are somehow objective truths, when they're not. They're very much subjective interpretations and, in the case of the cut throats, over-interpretations of the evidence.

You recently wrote something like "Chapman and Kelly had their throats cut, and Jackson drastically so". Now, having your head chopped off isn't the same as having your throat cut, and it takes a huge amount of special pleading to put them in the same category, as if decapitation were an extreme form of throat-cutting. It isn't; decapitation happens, not because the killer wants to kill you quickly (as per Chapman/Kelly), but because he wants to cut you in pieces after he's killed you (as per Jackson and the other Torso victims). There's no comparison between the JTR and Torso cases to be found here.

I won't comment in detail on the apparent similarity of the "three slips/flaps" - which we've argued to death in the past - except to say that my interpretation of the evidence sees little or no similarity there, either.