Same motive = same killer

[RockySullivan]

Hurley wasn't sleeping under the arch. I think that was a misprint by someone. The Annibal address was also a mishearing of the street he lived on, which was 10 Ellen Place, Ellen Street.

thanks jerry. do you know who first suggested Lydia Hart as the victim? it's interesting they originally thought she lived on Ellen but she actually lived on Pinchin. from Rob Clacks article in ripperologist 143: Trying to establish the identity of the woman was no easy task. There was a rumour that the remains were
those of Lydia Hart, a mother of two boys, who was said to be living in Ellen Street. Her friends began a search
for her in the area and heard news that she was in the local Infirmary, where her sons and friends subsequently
found her. She had apparently gone on a bit of a spree and needed medical treatment. It also turned out that she
did not live in Ellen Street, but in fact in a room above a shop in Pinchin Stree

[Fisherman]

Christer,

This is the tie in to the journalist connection. This is from the Echo on September 18th, 1888:

Is there a clue? The police apparently believe there is. The following facts have just come to hand in connection with it:- On the day of the murder (the 8th inst.) a man was seen in the lavatory of the City News Rooms, 4 Ludgate circus buildings, changing his clothes. He departed hurriedly, leaving behind him a pair of trousers, a shirt, and a pair of socks. Unfortunately no one connected with the establishment saw the man, or he would certainly have been stopped and questioned as to why he was changing his clothes there, and leaving the old ones behind.
Mr. Walker, the proprietor of the news rooms, states that he did not hear of the occurrence until late in the afternoon, when his attention was called to the clothes in the lavatory. He did not at the time attach any importance to the fact, and the clothes were thrown into the dust box, and placed outside, being carted away in the City Sewers cart on the Monday. On the following Tuesday, however, he received a visit from a man who said he was a police officer, and asked for the clothes which had been left there on the Saturday. Mr. walker replied that if he wanted them he would have to go to the Commissioners of the City Sewers, telling him at the same time what he had done with them. Two detectives called on Thursday last, and had an interview with Mr. Walker, and they succeeded in finding a man who saw the visitor changing his clothes in the lavatory. He has given the police a description of him. He is stated to be a man of respectable appearance, about thirty years of age, and wearing a dark moustache. The police are very reticent about the matter, and decline to give any information on the subject. They evidently attach some importance to the affair. Mr. Walker again received a visit from two detectives yesterday morning. The police are now trying to trace the clothes. There is a hope that they may furnish some clue which will lead to the identity of the man they are seeking.

Notice the address in the above article of the City News Rooms, at No. 4 Ludgate Circus. That address is caddy corner to the King Lud Pub to the SW. The King Lud Pub is where John Arnold supposedly ran onto his informant the following year on almost the exact same date. The Central News Agency had the address of No. 5 New Bridge Street, which is either right next door or the same building as 4, Ludgate Circus. Are the City News Rooms aka the Central News Agency? The journalist, newsvendor, etc. connection combined with the John Arnold story all seems too much for coincidence in my mind.

5 New Bridge Street was an address given for the CNA, Jerry, and that seemingly takes us 35 yards south of Ludgate Cirkus, on the western side of todays Farringdon Street.

It is a strange story, and it defies the laws of coincidences, agreed. Apparently, though, the clothes do not seem to have been bloodstained? Surely, that would not have gone unnoticed?

[RockySullivan]

5 New Bridge Street was an address given for the CNA, Jerry, and that seemingly takes us 35 yards south of Ludgate Cirkus, on the western side of todays Farringdon Street.

It is a strange story, and it defies the laws of coincidences, agreed. Apparently, though, the clothes do not seem to have been bloodstained? Surely, that would not have gone unnoticed?

Yea and why change the socks?

[jerryd]

About two weeks after this incident (around September 23rd), a brown paper parcel was discovered thrown over some railings at the corner of Devonshire and Great Portland Street by PC 457D. The parcel contained some underclothing which consisted of a drab flannel shirt, drab pants, a pair of cuffs and a collar. The shirt and pants were saturated with blood and the cuffs and collar only splashed with blood.

In regard to the September 8th clothing incident this may be relevant. Maybe not.

[RockySullivan]

About two weeks after this incident (around September 23rd), a brown paper parcel was discovered thrown over some railings at the corner of Devonshire and Great Portland Street by PC 457D. The parcel contained some underclothing which consisted of a drab flannel shirt, drab pants, a pair of cuffs and a collar. The shirt and pants were saturated with blood and the cuffs and collar only splashed with blood.

In regard to the September 8th clothing incident this may be relevant. Maybe not.

jerry it matches how the killer seemed to like to dump over railings. my london geography is terrible but it looks like this was near to the 83 tottenham torso? Why would the bloody clothes be dumped over the railings rather than thrown in the trash, they were in a brown paper parcel after all? i'm not sure i'm aware of what the london garbage system was like

[jerryd]

jerry it matches how the killer seemed to like to dump over railings. my london geography is terrible but it looks like this was near to the 83 tottenham torso?

Yes, it was in the vicinity of Charles LeGrand's one time residence on Charlotte Street and the house on Cleveland Street where Charles Hammond was running his male brothel. It was also close to Fitzroy Square where a part of the Tottenham torso was deposited.

Why would the bloody clothes be dumped over the railings rather than thrown in the trash, they were in a brown paper parcel after all? i'm not sure i'm aware of what the london garbage system was like

Good question.

[RockySullivan]

where there ever any male dismembered victims in London between say 1870 and 1900?

[Sam Flynn]

It would be better, perhaps, if we referred specifically to the "Tottenham Court Road" torso, rather than the "Tottenham" torso. There's quite a difference - Tottenham Court Road being in postal area W1, and Tottenham out in the sticks in N17. I know, because I've lived in both post-codes: North Row and Grafton Way (W1) and Scales Road (N17)... there's quite a hike between them

[Abby Normal]

Not judging Bundy by the cover was always a very good idea...

What I am after is how we sometimes have a propensity to make shining heroes of abominable people, Abby.

I don’t

[RockySullivan]

It would be better, perhaps, if we referred specifically to the "Tottenham Court Road" torso, rather than the "Tottenham" torso. There's quite a difference - Tottenham Court Road being in postal area W1, and Tottenham out in the sticks in N17. I know, because I've lived in both post-codes: North Row and Grafton Way (W1) and Scales Road (N17)... there's quite a hike between them

Yes that's why I included the year '83 to distinguish. but thank you for clarifying, its helpful to have someone here who knows the geography so well.

[RockySullivan]

Yes, it was in the vicinity of Charles LeGrand's one time residence on Charlotte Street and the house on Cleveland Street where Charles Hammond was running his male brothel. It was also close to Fitzroy Square where a part of the Tottenham torso was deposited.



Good question.

Hm perhaps he thought the parcel wouldn't be found there? I imagine he might have been worried the clothes could be traced back to him, but if he wanted to could he have thrown it away in a public trash can? the body parts meager found, were they dumped into a trash bin he emptied into his cart? if so perhaps the killer was avoiding trash bins? again it all goes back to my point of how hard it was to make things disappear in London.

[jerryd]

Hm perhaps he thought the parcel wouldn't be found there? I imagine he might have been worried the clothes could be traced back to him, but if he wanted to could he have thrown it away in a public trash can? the body parts meager found, were they dumped into a trash bin he emptied into his cart? if so perhaps the killer was avoiding trash bins? again it all goes back to my point of how hard it was to make things disappear in London.

The interesting thing about this set of clothes is they were underclothes and drab in color. Then thrown in were a collar and cuffs. The collar and cuffs seem like addons to an outfit. Like a disguise. And it's almost like whoever owned these underclothes was down to his skivvies when he got blood all over them.

[RockySullivan]

The interesting thing about this set of clothes is they were underclothes and drab in color. Then thrown in were a collar and cuffs. The collar and cuffs seem like addons to an outfit. Like a disguise. And it's almost like whoever owned these underclothes was down to his skivvies when he got blood all over them.

So he gets the victim in an intimate situation, kills them and then immediately goes to work on dismembering them, like Mary Kelly? was the victim killed nearby? were the clothes dumped the same time?

[RockySullivan]

Yes that's why I included the year '83 to distinguish. but thank you for clarifying, its helpful to have someone here who knows the geography so well.

I meant 1884 here

[Fisherman]

I don’t

I wouldnīt propose to know whether you do or whether you donīt, Abby, and I wasnīt referring to you in any way. I was pointing to how media has a propensity to give names to serial killers that sound as if they came from some of the Avengers movies, how they describe them as criminal masterminds and how the general public (understandably) follow suit.

Thatīs what I donīt like.