Originally posted by RockySullivan
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Same motive = same killer
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Okay, Ill need to return to this thread when I have more time. However, I'll just make this observation. There is zero evidence that any of the Torso victims had any connection to Whitechapel. The only connection is the Thames, and this might suggest the perpetrator had access to a boat.
Thus, Liz Jackson had been sleeping rough on the embankment. Most of the body parts were disposed of in the Thames. The Scotland Yard building, where the Whitehall Torso was found, is on the embankment.
I think would also reiterate that JtR was definitely a marauder, and every geographical profile that has been carried out confirms this. That alone should be sufficient to rule him out as The Torso perpetrator-no cause of death was ever determined with any victim-who was a commuter.
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Here's a question for you. Has there ever been another serial killer in history who operated in two completely different guises as JtR and Torso Man must have done?
Thus, metaphorically speaking, by day he's a dismemberer, abducting victims, storing their bodies for up to several weeks-suggesting that he
joyed spending significant periods of time with his murdered victins- and then dumping then over a wide area, taking care to prevent identification, thus further highlighting his cautious personality.
But by night he transforms into Slasher Man. He's a very different killer, this time focussing his activities within an incredibly small geographical location-leaving expert geographical profilers to conclude that he must have been a local man. However, in this guise he's the total opposite of Torso Man. For instance, he's extremely incurious, slaughtering women in the street-in one case during daylight hours, in someone's back yard, and at a time when people were leaving for work.
And, of course, because he's had a personality transplant he's now disinterested in spending any significant time with his victims.
And, of course, he makes no attempt to dismember them. In fact, in the one case where he had the opportunity to do this, Kelly, he just slashes away in as frenzy, hacking the body to pieces. Again, radically different to his Torso Man guise, where he exercised as significant amount of skill.
So, what other similar examples are there?
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Fisherman argues that there aren't any other examples of two evisceration murderers operating in the same city over a similar time frame. But he's wrong.
Thus, Fisherman believes that the earlier Torso murderer were by the same hand, so we must be dealing with a period of some 16 years-1873-1889-in the City of London.
Well now, Denis Nielsen was was a dismenberer and an eviscerator. And he was active in London in the late 1970s and early 1980s
Then we have Robert Napper, a serial killer who dismembered and eviscerated a victim in 1992...in London!
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^^
Good points, John. For my money the characteristics of the JTR evisceration murders, even the Whitechapel Murders as a whole, are so fundamentally different from the Torso Murders that there's little likelihood of their having been committed by the same person. Indeed, much like most researchers don't see one hand behind all the WMs, it's by no means a given that the TMs were a "series" in their own right.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post^^
Good points, John. For my money the characteristics of the JTR evisceration murders, even the Whitechapel Murders as a whole, are so fundamentally different from the Torso Murders that there's little likelihood of their having been committed by the same person. Indeed, much like most researchers don't see one hand behind all the WMs, it's by no means a given that the TMs were a "series" in their own right.
And there's no doubt that Kelly was aggressively slashed to pieces by a killer who must have been in an absolute frenzy. And the Torso perpetrator(s) was most definitely not an aggressive dismenberer.
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post^^
Good points, John. For my money the characteristics of the JTR evisceration murders, even the Whitechapel Murders as a whole, are so fundamentally different from the Torso Murders that there's little likelihood of their having been committed by the same person. Indeed, much like most researchers don't see one hand behind all the WMs, it's by no means a given that the TMs were a "series" in their own right."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by John G View PostFisherman argues that there aren't any other examples of two evisceration murderers operating in the same city over a similar time frame. But he's wrong.
Thus, Fisherman believes that the earlier Torso murderer were by the same hand, so we must be dealing with a period of some 16 years-1873-1889-in the City of London.
Well now, Denis Nielsen was was a dismenberer and an eviscerator. And he was active in London in the late 1970s and early 1980s
Then we have Robert Napper, a serial killer who dismembered and eviscerated a victim in 1992...in London!"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by John G View PostThanks Sam. And there's also the possibility that the Whitechapel murders involved more than one person. For instance, there has to be some doubts about Kelly and Mackenzie.
And there's no doubt that Kelly was aggressively slashed to pieces by a killer who must have been in an absolute frenzy. And the Torso perpetrator(s) was most definitely not an aggressive dismenberer.
MK killed in a frenzy? What the ef does that even mean? Like some maniacal orangutans going berserk on her with a knife?
Frenzy. Lol."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by John G View PostFisherman argues that there aren't any other examples of two evisceration murderers operating in the same city over a similar time frame. But he's wrong.
Thus, Fisherman believes that the earlier Torso murderer were by the same hand, so we must be dealing with a period of some 16 years-1873-1889-in the City of London.
Well now, Denis Nielsen was was a dismenberer and an eviscerator. And he was active in London in the late 1970s and early 1980s
Then we have Robert Napper, a serial killer who dismembered and eviscerated a victim in 1992...in London!
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Originally posted by John G View PostAnd, of course, he makes no attempt to dismember them. In fact, in the one case where he had the opportunity to do this, Kelly, he just slashes away in as frenzy, hacking the body to pieces. Again, radically different to his Torso Man guise, where he exercised as significant amount of skill.
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post^^
Good points, John. For my money the characteristics of the JTR evisceration murders, even the Whitechapel Murders as a whole, are so fundamentally different from the Torso Murders that there's little likelihood of their having been committed by the same person. Indeed, much like most researchers don't see one hand behind all the WMs, it's by no means a given that the TMs were a "series" in their own right.
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Originally posted by RockySullivan View PostExactly and he did come damn close to decapitating them right there on the spot, another indication it's the same guy
There is little evidence of a paraphilia at work in the torso murders, but every indication of practicality. JTR's modus operandi - killing and eviscerating in public - was about as impractical as it gets.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View PostThe Morning Advertiser report is more complete;
"The lower part of the colon or large bowel and of the pelvic viscera were absent - that includes the uterus, bladder, and rectum"
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