Same motive = same killer

[jerryd]

This ^ Jerry I'm sure you've looked but I wonder if there any missing persons from whitechapel around the time the torso victims disappeared

I have looked and nothing glaring has attracted my attention with the exception of Esther Bishop. Unfortunately there was no follow up on her that I have found. As you probably know, everyone and their dog were claiming these torso victims to be their missing relative.

[John G]

Okay, Ill need to return to this thread when I have more time. However, I'll just make this observation. There is zero evidence that any of the Torso victims had any connection to Whitechapel. The only connection is the Thames, and this might suggest the perpetrator had access to a boat.

Thus, Liz Jackson had been sleeping rough on the embankment. Most of the body parts were disposed of in the Thames. The Scotland Yard building, where the Whitehall Torso was found, is on the embankment.

I think would also reiterate that JtR was definitely a marauder, and every geographical profile that has been carried out confirms this. That alone should be sufficient to rule him out as The Torso perpetrator-no cause of death was ever determined with any victim-who was a commuter.

[John G]

Here's a question for you. Has there ever been another serial killer in history who operated in two completely different guises as JtR and Torso Man must have done?

Thus, metaphorically speaking, by day he's a dismemberer, abducting victims, storing their bodies for up to several weeks-suggesting that he
joyed spending significant periods of time with his murdered victins- and then dumping then over a wide area, taking care to prevent identification, thus further highlighting his cautious personality.

But by night he transforms into Slasher Man. He's a very different killer, this time focussing his activities within an incredibly small geographical location-leaving expert geographical profilers to conclude that he must have been a local man. However, in this guise he's the total opposite of Torso Man. For instance, he's extremely incurious, slaughtering women in the street-in one case during daylight hours, in someone's back yard, and at a time when people were leaving for work.

And, of course, because he's had a personality transplant he's now disinterested in spending any significant time with his victims.

And, of course, he makes no attempt to dismember them. In fact, in the one case where he had the opportunity to do this, Kelly, he just slashes away in as frenzy, hacking the body to pieces. Again, radically different to his Torso Man guise, where he exercised as significant amount of skill.

So, what other similar examples are there?

[John G]

Fisherman argues that there aren't any other examples of two evisceration murderers operating in the same city over a similar time frame. But he's wrong.

Thus, Fisherman believes that the earlier Torso murderer were by the same hand, so we must be dealing with a period of some 16 years-1873-1889-in the City of London.

Well now, Denis Nielsen was was a dismenberer and an eviscerator. And he was active in London in the late 1970s and early 1980s

Then we have Robert Napper, a serial killer who dismembered and eviscerated a victim in 1992...in London!

[Sam Flynn]

^^

Good points, John. For my money the characteristics of the JTR evisceration murders, even the Whitechapel Murders as a whole, are so fundamentally different from the Torso Murders that there's little likelihood of their having been committed by the same person. Indeed, much like most researchers don't see one hand behind all the WMs, it's by no means a given that the TMs were a "series" in their own right.

[John G]

^^

Good points, John. For my money the characteristics of the JTR evisceration murders, even the Whitechapel Murders as a whole, are so fundamentally different from the Torso Murders that there's little likelihood of their having been committed by the same person. Indeed, much like most researchers don't see one hand behind all the WMs, it's by no means a given that the TMs were a "series" in their own right.

Thanks Sam. And there's also the possibility that the Whitechapel murders involved more than one person. For instance, there has to be some doubts about Kelly and Mackenzie.

And there's no doubt that Kelly was aggressively slashed to pieces by a killer who must have been in an absolute frenzy. And the Torso perpetrator(s) was most definitely not an aggressive dismenberer.

[Abby Normal]

^^

Good points, John. For my money the characteristics of the JTR evisceration murders, even the Whitechapel Murders as a whole, are so fundamentally different from the Torso Murders that there's little likelihood of their having been committed by the same person. Indeed, much like most researchers don't see one hand behind all the WMs, it's by no means a given that the TMs were a "series" in their own right.

Now we’re going backwards

[Abby Normal]

Fisherman argues that there aren't any other examples of two evisceration murderers operating in the same city over a similar time frame. But he's wrong.

Thus, Fisherman believes that the earlier Torso murderer were by the same hand, so we must be dealing with a period of some 16 years-1873-1889-in the City of London.

Well now, Denis Nielsen was was a dismenberer and an eviscerator. And he was active in London in the late 1970s and early 1980s

Then we have Robert Napper, a serial killer who dismembered and eviscerated a victim in 1992...in London!

Well if your going to call someone wrong you should at least provide a correct example. Those two weren’t operating at the same time.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Sam. And there's also the possibility that the Whitechapel murders involved more than one person. For instance, there has to be some doubts about Kelly and Mackenzie.

And there's no doubt that Kelly was aggressively slashed to pieces by a killer who must have been in an absolute frenzy. And the Torso perpetrator(s) was most definitely not an aggressive dismenberer.

Dude if you can’t even get the basics right what’s the freakin point?

MK killed in a frenzy? What the ef does that even mean? Like some maniacal orangutans going berserk on her with a knife?

Frenzy. Lol.

[RockySullivan]

Fisherman argues that there aren't any other examples of two evisceration murderers operating in the same city over a similar time frame. But he's wrong.

Thus, Fisherman believes that the earlier Torso murderer were by the same hand, so we must be dealing with a period of some 16 years-1873-1889-in the City of London.

Well now, Denis Nielsen was was a dismenberer and an eviscerator. And he was active in London in the late 1970s and early 1980s

Then we have Robert Napper, a serial killer who dismembered and eviscerated a victim in 1992...in London!

early 1980's and 1992, good example John!

[Harry D]

And, of course, he makes no attempt to dismember them. In fact, in the one case where he had the opportunity to do this, Kelly, he just slashes away in as frenzy, hacking the body to pieces. Again, radically different to his Torso Man guise, where he exercised as significant amount of skill.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's Fisherman's assertion that the mutilations/organ removal were a shared paraphilia between JTR/Torso, and the dismemberment was mainly a practical matter. As the JTR victims were killed on the streets or in their own lodgings, this wasn't necessary.

[RockySullivan]

Exactly and he did come damn close to decapitating them right there on the spot, another indication it's the same guy

[Michael W Richards]

^^

Good points, John. For my money the characteristics of the JTR evisceration murders, even the Whitechapel Murders as a whole, are so fundamentally different from the Torso Murders that there's little likelihood of their having been committed by the same person. Indeed, much like most researchers don't see one hand behind all the WMs, it's by no means a given that the TMs were a "series" in their own right.

I would agree John and Sam, even when the opportunity for dismemberment was at hand the killer in room 13 stopped short of that. I don't think one can argue though that at least one of these Torsos wasnt placed rather than just discarded, and the first few C5 murders seem to me purposefully done outdoors to be easily found. There is a suggestion of terrorist acts in both series, in my opinion.

[Sam Flynn]

Exactly and he did come damn close to decapitating them right there on the spot, another indication it's the same guy

But he didn't decapitate Kelly, when he had every opportunity to do so. Furthermore, the JTR mutilations were hack jobs, whereas the torso disarticulations were very much cleaner. And, apart from the Pinchin St case, the vast majority of the torso body parts were almost certainly deposited far to the west of Whitechapel.

There is little evidence of a paraphilia at work in the torso murders, but every indication of practicality. JTR's modus operandi - killing and eviscerating in public - was about as impractical as it gets.

[RockySullivan]

The Morning Advertiser report is more complete;

"The lower part of the colon or large bowel and of the pelvic viscera were absent - that includes the uterus, bladder, and rectum"

Can anyone explain why Bond at the inquest specifically states the uterus was absent?