Same motive = same killer

[Abby Normal]

That point is arguable, I guess Abby. Dr. Bond said late August, early September. That was after seeing the condition of the leg and torso. Dr. Neville, who examined the arm immediately after it was discovered and was the first of the parts discovered, had death around the 8th or 9th of September. Dr. Neville did not attend the inquest instead saying he would trust Dr. Bond would come to the same conclusion as he did for the TOD or something to that effect.

thanks Jer!

so dead for some time before dumped. yet other torsos dumped soon after death.

it would be interesting to see a list of the torsos/parts to see when killed, when dumped/discovered but more telling maybe... what parts were never recovered, to see if we can establish what torsos/parts the killer may have held on to!!

[jerryd]

thanks Jer!

so dead for some time before dumped. yet other torsos dumped soon after death.

it would be interesting to see a list of the torsos/parts to see when killed, when dumped/discovered but more telling maybe... what parts were never recovered, to see if we can establish what torsos/parts the killer may have held on to!!

I think it was agreed at the time the parts were cut off the bodies very close to death. As far as parts recovered or not and kept by the killer is questionable because maybe they were just never found. Even though the leg of the Whitehall torso would make sense (because of the location it was found) to belong to that torso, do we really know for sure? I know Bond and Hebbert based their decision on the length of the leg and size of the foot, etc., but the leg was cut off below the knee and there was no thigh to match it up to, so do we really know 100% it belonged to that victim?

[Abby Normal]

So much for objectivity!

It's highly questionable whether one man was responsible for either series, let alone both.

yeah so much for objectivity.

You and Els recent (actually most) posts are nothing but snide comments, useless anecdotes and what amounts to NO, Its not one man or Lech either, with no more evidence or arguments to back it up.

Its gotten to the point where it seems all you want to do is troll fish, so makes me wonder about your objectivity- and credibility for that matter.

Wildbore for torsos and lech for the ripper have a lot of similarities-both discovered the body and the bodies turned along the work routes but I don't see you guys jumping down Jerrys throat every time he posts something.

if you guys haven't got anything useful to contribute(for or against) at least stop with the BS.

your both usually great contributors but I don't know what the hell it is with you guys and anything Lech/ torsoripper. Its not like any of these ideas are so outrageous and a lot of respectable people think there might be something to them!

[Abby Normal]

I think it was agreed at the time the parts were cut off the bodies very close to death. As far as parts recovered or not and kept by the killer is questionable because maybe they were just never found. Even though the leg of the Whitehall torso would make sense (because of the location it was found) to belong to that torso, do we really know for sure? I know Bond and Hebbert based their decision on the length of the leg and size of the foot, etc., but the leg was cut off below the knee and there was no thigh to match it up to, so do we really know 100% it belonged to that victim?

Thanks Jer
That's true, but if we had a list of what torsos and parts were dumped/found soon after death and what were never found, we might be able to come up with what possible torsos/parts he held onto to try and see what the heck is going on.

[Fisherman]

when a serious ripper researcher (not my words) decides that a certain suspect took a certain route to go somewhere isn't it just complete conjecture and actually they have no idea which streets the guy took?

I have the perfect answer for that, Rocky. But you are seemingly not interested in having your "points" countered...?

[RockySullivan]

yeah so much for objectivity.

You and Els recent (actually most) posts are nothing but snide comments, useless anecdotes and what amounts to NO, Its not one man or Lech either, with no more evidence or arguments to back it up.

Its gotten to the point where it seems all you want to do is troll fish, so makes me wonder about your objectivity- and credibility for that matter.

Wildbore for torsos and lech for the ripper have a lot of similarities-both discovered the body and the bodies turned along the work routes but I don't see you guys jumping down Jerrys throat every time he posts something.

if you guys haven't got anything useful to contribute(for or against) at least stop with the BS.

your both usually great contributors but I don't know what the hell it is with you guys and anything Lech/ torsoripper. Its not like any of these ideas are so outrageous and a lot of respectable people think there might be something to them!

Abby I tried explaining the difference. Polly was killed in the street, someone had to be the first to walk up.. Lechmere might have happened to me the first one. but the vault is a closed location. it is not like Buck's row at all, it's the opposite of the Lechmere scenario

[RockySullivan]

I have the perfect answer for that, Rocky. But you are seemingly not interested in having your "points" countered...?

well since you are so uncomfortable unless you are being addressed with the arbitrary title of "fisherman" you'll have to let someone else who isn't 4 answer up for you instead

[Sam Flynn]

yeah so much for objectivity.

You and Els recent (actually most) posts are nothing but snide comments

Not a snide comment in the least, and most - I hope all - of my posts are anything but. It's not a case of trolling, but of pointing out issues in the argumentation.

[Abby Normal]

Not a snide comment in the least, and most - I hope all - of my posts are anything but. It's not a case of trolling, but of pointing out issues in the argumentation.

these are the two posts by you and El that set me off:

Coming soon, a thread entitled "Was 'Wildbore' another Lechmere alias?"

My dear Christer,
So long has you are still posting that is the one certainty of the case we can be 100% sure of.

And of course after 200 pages the thread has not been able to establish that the two series of crimes do reflect the same motive. Yet alone the same hand.
Yes you have certainly argued and suggested the similarities are conclusive with regards to the wounds; however many still do not agree that the similarities are sufficiently strong to be viewed as overwhelming evidence, and are certainly not conclusive.

Many pages ago I said this thread was unlikely to provide any new discussion or seriously change opinions and such I believe is the present outcome, and that despite a very valiant attempt by yourself .

The thread however has tied in rather nicely with work mainly by Jerry, on JTR forums with regards to the Whitehall case and possible links to individuals, companies and waterways, which is all very interesting.

I have no doubt that when you feel ready to use the information you have not yet disclosed, the situation may change, or at the very least we should have something new to use in the debate.

Cheers

Steve

one snide comment by you--- and el, with a rather for some reason long post that amounts to -this thread is useless.

and most of both have been along these lines. if you don't agree fine, that's one thing-I'm not 100% convinced either but lets stop with this crap. You guys are usually some of the best contributors out here, which is why its so disappointing, and frustrating to see this BS ad nauseum.

[Abby Normal]

Abby I tried explaining the difference. Polly was killed in the street, someone had to be the first to walk up.. Lechmere might have happened to me the first one. but the vault is a closed location. it is not like Buck's row at all, it's the opposite of the Lechmere scenario

Hi Rocky
Thanks-I see your point-don't necessarily agree totally-but I see what your getting at. I would just add that eventhough its in a vault-one of the workers had to discover it-just like someone walking down the street had to discover Polly. now the big difference to me is that wildbore actually pointed it out to people,and its a long dead corpse, whereas lech is seen near a freshly killed body before he raises alarm.

BTW Rocky you seem genuinely interested in this thread/torsos/maybe a torsoripper-- but whats the beef with Fish? seems like hes honestly trying to make nice with you if you would stop with the petty contstant namecalling?

[Michael W Richards]

That´s because just the one man DID both series, Michael. I am certain that the 1873 torso, Liz Jackson, Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly fell prey to the same killer, and I feel very justified in saying that the 1887 torso, the Whitehall torso and the Pinchin Street torso also belonged, just as Polly Nichols and Catherine Eddowes did.

Those are the more or less given ones, and there is good reason to add the 1874 torso, the Tottenham torso, Martha Tabram and Elizabeth Stride too.

So what I did when speaking to Jerry was to point out how I would probably have been of a different mindset if there only was the one deed, the Whitehall deed. And I did it in recognition of Jerrys eminent work, which impresses me much.

I'm sure that the contemporary police would love your police work when all it amounts to is putting all the unsolved murders, as different and unique as they are individually, in one group file and marking it as all being murdered by one unknown suspect. Sure looks better on them than many women killed for different reasons by a few men, your way they only blow one investigation when it remains unsolved. In reality though, there are 13+ unsolved murders of women over a few years span, and there is no evidence to connect any one murder to another within that file.

You make great assumptions about these cases Fisherman, you assume motive when none has been identified, you assume all belong under one killer when no such evidence exists to support you, you assume a suspect for one group cannot be valid unless it is for both "series"...and to my mind the greatest and most common assumption in Ripperology,..that the Canonical Group alone is a validated "series" which can be attributed to only one killer.

[Fisherman]

well since you are so uncomfortable unless you are being addressed with the arbitrary title of "fisherman" you'll have to let someone else who isn't 4 answer up for you instead

Oh, how I would like to comment on that. But...

[Fisherman]

I'm sure that the contemporary police would love your police work when all it amounts to is putting all the unsolved murders, as different and unique as they are individually, in one group file and marking it as all being murdered by one unknown suspect. Sure looks better on them than many women killed for different reasons by a few men, your way they only blow one investigation when it remains unsolved. In reality though, there are 13+ unsolved murders of women over a few years span, and there is no evidence to connect any one murder to another within that file.

You make great assumptions about these cases Fisherman, you assume motive when none has been identified, you assume all belong under one killer when no such evidence exists to support you, you assume a suspect for one group cannot be valid unless it is for both "series"...and to my mind the greatest and most common assumption in Ripperology,..that the Canonical Group alone is a validated "series" which can be attributed to only one killer.

Then we agree on something tonight, Michael; I also think the contemporary police would love my work.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky
I would just add that eventhough its in a vault-one of the workers had to discover it-just like someone walking down the street had to discover Polly.

yea but in the vault only very few people could discover it, but on the street, literally anyone could be the first to walk by.

i don't really have anything against jesus, he just doesn't prove **** then pretends as if he's won the argument. he says rude **** all the time and then demands to be treated with respect. that's fine, i don't have a problem with that he can post whatever he wants i don't give a ****. but don't tell me what to post

[Sam Flynn]

yea but in the vault only very few people could discover it, but on the street, literally anyone could be the first to walk by.

Indeed, and that's another clear point of departure between the Ripper's method and the perpetrators of the torso murders. There was nothing to stop them scattering body parts in a quiet, open street if they felt like it.