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Same motive = same killer

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Frank?

    What are you doing here? I thought this was the terrible three against me only?

    Anyways, you are welcome to the shooting gallery!

    I will post your thoughts with a few red observations where I think you are a bit premature or wrong.

    The MO’s of Torso man and the Ripper clearly differed in one regard. One led the murderer to do as he pleased in privacy and light; the other lead him to fulfill his dark desire out in the streets, where he could be quite sure that he wouldn’t be able to do all that he wished and worked under time pressure and in darkness. That’s a big difference, as it has great influence on being able to satisfy his very driving force.
    Here, you are presupposing that you know his driving force, Frank, and I am anything but sure that you do. You also predispose that he would have gone further with the Ripper victims given the time, but I don´t think that necessarily applies either.

    I would say that what was done to the Ripper victims tells us what was driving the perpetrator of these murders. After all, he risked his very life doing what he did to them.
    But what drove him? Can we know?
    His first and foremost interest lay under the skirts of his victims, as that’s the part that he attacked when he had little time.
    How would he know that he had little time? He would have time until somebody came along, and that could be ten seconds or ten minutes or half an hour.
    He cut the abdomen open and cut out the uterus.
    With Eddowes, he took the uterus and the kidney, and carved the face and cut the nosetip off. Since no reports were made about faeces in the facial wounds, it seems they preceded the abdominal carving. Why do you think that was? And why did he take a kidney too if a uterus was his desire?

    When he had more time, with Mary Jane Kelly, I have no doubt that we see a lot of the dark fantasy that drove him. He did not only open up her abdomen and cut out her uterus (and other organs), but also cut (off) those parts of the woman that might be considered attractive to a man, i.e. belly, thighs, breasts, arms, legs, face.
    So what was this desire? What did it stipulate? And why?
    [I][I][I]
    We see not much of this with at least the last 4 torso victims, who (timewise) were killed closest to the Ripper victims. Only 2 out of those 4 had their abdomen cut open, only 1 of these had her uterus cut out through the opened abdomen and none of them were cut beyond this and the cuts to dismember. This is at least odd, considering Torso man had at least about as much time with his victims as the Ripper spent with Kelly, and, very likely, more. What strikes me is that Jackson looks quite different from Kelly, even though she was killed after Kelly. She had no cut at all on breasts, legs, arms, no fleshy parts that were cut off her body.
    I refer to the Ripper murders as Torso light murders. I think that the Ripper murders were slayings where he was not worried about being meticulous or exact because he knew that he would probably be pressed for time. So he set about things quickly and produced sloppier results. But the gist was the same - disassemble the woman into parts in one way or another. He strived, if I am correct, after a result that could only reach near perfection if he had time and seclusion enough to cut meticulously and exactly, the way he did when he took the face off the 1873 victim.

    So, as far as I’m concerned, an important question remains: why would a serial killer, with regards to his very driving force, want to settle for less?
    Not less - quicker. Kelly was more, not less, remember. And your thinking only works if you have made a correct identification of his driving force. I don´t think you have.
    After all, less time would mean less time for whatever it was that drove him. I think this is a viable question, since I have never come across any serial killer case (not that I know them all, mind you) in which the perpetrator went from killing a string of women in privacy (at relative low risk) over a long period to killing a string of women out in the streets (at relative high risk) over the brief period, and in so doing having less time to live out the fantasy that drove him.

    There are many examples of killers with a narcissistic thinking who have gotten more and more careless, taking larger and larger risks. Basically, that is what our man does when playing the Rippers role. I would have been more worried about how he goes back to the torso mode instead of developing an increasingly risky MO altogether.
    But basically, what you are asking is "Can a killer really do it like that?", and the answer is "Yes, it is obvious since the siilarities give him away."
    You say cases where a killer goes from security to risktaking are not to be expected. How expected is it to find two killer in the same town and time with so many baffling similarities, Frank? The cutting of the soft part of the neck and throat, the opening of the abdomen, the taking of the heart, the taking of the uterus, the taking away of the abdominal wall in flaps, the vanishing rings leaving wrench marks on the fingers, the commonality in how no obvious torture was applied , all of these things - how do you explain them? Coincidence?

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  • Elamarna
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Since we only have one victims identity, we cannot know if the others were prostitutes too. But for the ones we know the ID of, the correlation is 100 %.

    It is extremely relevant for the discussion, since it tells us that as far as we can tell, the victimology is the same in this respect.
    Given the number of Torso's you include 1 is not statistically significant.


    Steve

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  • Elamarna
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Actually, you must agree, Steve. The series ARE linked in the respects listed. Whether that link is a true or a false one is another matter, but linked they are.
    They are linked in that:

    They occur in the same city.

    The Torso's from 87-89 are in the sametime scale as the 88 series.

    The bodies are female and a knife is used in both series.

    Those are the hard definitive links.

    The rest is interpretation by various researchers.


    Steve
    Last edited by Elamarna; 05-08-2018, 05:15 AM.

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    I might have mentioned earlier that we don't really know whether all the torso victims were prostitutes. Even if they were, it is - as I said - of little or no relevance because prostitutes are easy, and common, targets for murder and mischief.
    Since we only have one victims identity, we cannot know if the others were prostitutes too. But for the ones we know the ID of, the correlation is 100 %.

    It is extremely relevant for the discussion, since it tells us that as far as we can tell, the victimology is the same in this respect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
    I am say yet again that a definitive link between what you cite as similarities has not been established, you saying it has does not make it so Christer.

    It may be for you, i accept that, you must accept others do not agree.


    Steve
    Actually, you must agree, Steve. The series ARE linked in the respects listed. Whether that link is a true or a false one is another matter, but linked they are.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    . Each and every false similarity you perceive must be proven before it can be ruled out. So far, none of them has.
    As you well know Fish these cannot be conclusively proven 130 years later unless ‘new’ evidence comes to light.

    If you make a statement based on your interpretation of the evidence and no one can put forward a possible refutation or even a possible alternative explaination then you are within your rights to say that your interpretation is likeiest to be the correct one.

    However, if you make statements and people (like Gareth, Steve and Trevor) put forward possible alternative explainations then you cant claim to be conclusively correct. Only that you believe that you have made the correct interpretation and that they have done the opposite.

    At a distance of 130 years its very difficult and usually impossible to be certain of anything (except that certain events occurred.) For example, saying that the killer dismembered due to a paraphilia cannot be stated as a fact as he may well have done it purely for ease of disposal. We cannot know what was going on in the killers mind just as we werent there to see the bodies in situ.

    It goes without saying that you are within your rights to interpret as your own intelligence and experience allows (its what we all do) but if i have a sinlge bugbear in ripperology (and ive mentioned this in other threads) it is over-confidence. At 130 years distance we should all be hyper-sensitive to this.

    For whatever reason i, and others, feel that you are over-confident (of course you are fully at liberty to be.) If bias is suggested, or stated, it is because you refuse to admit of the possibilty of alternative explainations. Explainations that many of us feel to be very reasonable and possible. To suggest that those explainations have to be conclusively proven (again after 130 years) is, im afraid, unreasonable at minimum. Digressing slightly, you use ‘the Mizen Scam’ to explain events in Buck’s Row despite there being not a smidgeon of evidence for it occurring. Why is that ‘alternative’ explaination permissable but alternative explainations for various medical issues or a killers motives are not?

    Its not a rigid adherance to facts Fish its a blind refusal to countenance alternatives. Alternatives that we have no way of knowing for certain are true or false. I am not biased. It does not bother me in the slightest if Tk and the ripper were one and the same or not. In actual fact, if they were one and the same it would give us more to go on in our efforts to unmask him. Unfortunately though i, and others, dont feel that they were. Bias doesnt enter into it for me. As for ignorance...im perfectly willing to hold up my hands and say that my knowledge of the TK murders is nowhere near your own (or Gareth’s or Steve’s) i just base my opinions on what i know and what ive read. That’s what we all do, hopefully.

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  • Elamarna
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    The motive was an urge to disassemble women and the killer was Charles Lechmere.

    There is no proof (singularis, not proofs), but if you are going to ask for proof, we can all pack up and leave. You first, Harry.

    To me, the shared identity is beyond reasonable doubt. That is what I have said and keep saying. It is not the same as having a court decision stating this.

    So there is really nothing for you to gab on about. Not that such things will stop you, but...
    And to others it is not beyond reasonable doubt, in fact it is a possabilty no more.

    Btw in case it slipped you mind, and these things do with all of us there were two questions i ask which are still awaiting a reply.

    The police force you quoted yesterday, what files did they see and what was the content of those files please.

    When do you beleive the last murder by this hand took place?

    Glad to see its lechmere, unless you can specifically link him directly to the TK, there is i venture to say little to link him to either series.


    We are back to what i posted in October 2016.

    You believe the same killer carried out both series.

    You beleive Lechmere was JtR, therefore he is TK too.

    However you have failed to show any evidence to link CL directly to the Torso's. Does any exist?

    Therefore you have two not one issues to address:

    1. Show a firm link between the two series of murders, one which is not reliant on generalisations of supposed similarities.

    2. Direct conclusive EVIDENCE, that Lechmere can be linked to either Series.

    At present with all due respect, there are possible, inconclusive and sometimes faulty links to the Nichols murder.
    There is no evidence i can see to link him to Kelly for instance, other than what could be applied to many others, that is he lived locally and it may have been on his way to work or it may not have been.


    Given you quote the similarities between Kelly and Jackson, such a real link would be very useful would it not?

    Steve
    Last edited by Elamarna; 05-08-2018, 04:18 AM.

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  • FrankO
    replied
    The MO’s of Torso man and the Ripper clearly differed in one regard. One led the murderer to do as he pleased in privacy and light; the other lead him to fulfill his dark desire out in the streets, where he could be quite sure that he wouldn’t be able to do all that he wished and worked under time pressure and in darkness. That’s a big difference, as it has great influence on being able to satisfy his very driving force.

    I would say that what was done to the Ripper victims tells us what was driving the perpetrator of these murders. After all, he risked his very life doing what he did to them. His first and foremost interest lay under the skirts of his victims, as that’s the part that he attacked when he had little time. He cut the abdomen open and cut out the uterus. When he had more time, with Mary Jane Kelly, I have no doubt that we see a lot of the dark fantasy that drove him. He did not only open up her abdomen and cut out her uterus (and other organs), but also cut (off) those parts of the woman that might be considered attractive to a man, i.e. belly, thighs, breasts, arms, legs, face.

    We see not much of this with at least the last 4 torso victims, who (timewise) were killed closest to the Ripper victims. Only 2 out of those 4 had their abdomen cut open, only 1 of these had her uterus cut out through the opened abdomen and none of them were cut beyond this and the cuts to dismember. This is at least odd, considering Torso man had at least about as much time with his victims as the Ripper spent with Kelly, and, very likely, more. What strikes me is that Jackson looks quite different from Kelly, even though she was killed after Kelly. She had no cut at all on breasts, legs, arms, no fleshy parts that were cut off her body.

    So, as far as I’m concerned, an important question remains: why would a serial killer, with regards to his very driving force, want to settle for less? After all, less time would mean less time for whatever it was that drove him. I think this is a viable question, since I have never come across any serial killer case (not that I know them all, mind you) in which the perpetrator went from killing a string of women in privacy (at relative low risk) over a long period to killing a string of women out in the streets (at relative high risk) over the brief period, and in so doing having less time to live out the fantasy that drove him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman
    Did or did not they all prostitute themselves?
    I might have mentioned earlier that we don't really know whether all the torso victims were prostitutes. Even if they were, it is - as I said - of little or no relevance because prostitutes are easy, and common, targets for murder and mischief.

    Leave a comment:


  • Elamarna
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    What is not "clearly established"?

    Did or did not Kelly, Chapman and Jackso have their abdomens opened?

    Did or did not they all have their uteri cut out?

    Did or did not they all loose parts or all of their abdominal walls?

    Did or did not they all prostitute themselves?

    Did or did not Kelly and Jackson have the heart taken out?

    I have said on numerous occasions that I am not linking all the cases - I am linking the SERIES by means of linking a few cases from both of them, namely Chapman, Kelly and Jackson. These cases are extremely closely related as per the above, and they contain extremely unusual and odd damage, to my mind putting in well beyond reasonable doubt that they fell prey to the same man.

    In not a single case can it be proven that the similarities are "false" similarities, and so until that happens, we cannot work from any other logically based presumption than that of one killer only.

    That is what I am saying.

    I am say yet again that a definitive link between what you cite as similarities has not been established, you saying it has does not make it so Christer.

    It may be for you, i accept that, you must accept others do not agree.


    Steve

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post
    I have no problem Fisherman.Same motive=same killer is your title for the thread.Seems the problems are yours.What was the motive,who was the killer?
    What are the proofs?Aside from me,appears you are having an awfull problem convincing people you have given the answers,'Beyond reasonable doubt'.You did claim that didn't you?
    The motive was an urge to disassemble women and the killer was Charles Lechmere.

    There is no proof (singularis, not proofs), but if you are going to ask for proof, we can all pack up and leave. You first, Harry.

    To me, the shared identity is beyond reasonable doubt. That is what I have said and keep saying. It is not the same as having a court decision stating this.

    So there is really nothing for you to gab on about. Not that such things will stop you, but...

    Leave a comment:


  • harry
    replied
    I have no problem Fisherman.Same motive=same killer is your title for the thread.Seems the problems are yours.What was the motive,who was the killer?
    What are the proofs?Aside from me,appears you are having an awfull problem convincing people you have given the answers,'Beyond reasonable doubt'.You did claim that didn't you?

    Leave a comment:


  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    ... over a long period of time.
    Yes. No obstacle whatsoever.

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    ... and they were dismembered and decapitated.
    Yes. No obstacle whatsoever.

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    ... oh, and apart from the Pinchin Street case, all the torso victims were dispatched in West London, certainly under cover, and probably on private premises. With a saw involved in most, if not all, cases.
    Yes. No obstacle whatsoever.

    Leave a comment:

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