Same motive = same killer

[Abby Normal]

More likely, he lived out west. The alternative is possible, but I'm a pragmatist
Here ya go, Abby

[ATTACH]18333[/ATTACH]

Note that two out of the three dots past the East End dividing line were parts of from Elizabeth Jackson's body, whose torso was found around that little "cluster" in Pimlico/Battersea. In other words, the only torso/body-part found in the East End proper was the Pinchin Street torso. The so-called "Rainham Mystery" of 1887 happened much further to the East, and doesn't appear on the map.

thank you Sam

[Sam Flynn]

If he lived out west, he travelled to Whitechapel to kill in the autumn of 1888. Which is more of an issue to me, but in no way whatsoever impossible.

Indeed, nothing's impossible, Fish. But what's more likely?

By the way, Gareth, a pragmatist would immediately realize that the many similarities inbetween the victims in the series point to one killer only. That´s pragmatism for you!

I think the word you're looking for is "optimism", Fish

[Sam Flynn]

thank you Sam

For completeness, I've added Rainham 1887... that's it, way out to the right.



I've been unable to find the precise location, but that'll give a fair idea.

[jerryd]

The so-called "Rainham Mystery" of 1887 happened much further to the East, and doesn't appear on the map.

That's not quite true, Sam.

Part of the trunk of the woman washed up near Rainham. There is a good possibility it traveled down the river from the west, unnoticed. That was the only part found that far east.

Here are the other parts from the Rainham Torso:

Thigh- found at Temple Pier (west of your line)
Part of the torso minus breasts- found on the foreshores of Battersea Park (west of your line)
Two arms- found at St Pancras Lock, Chalk Farm (northwest of your line)
Two legs- found at Regents Canal (west of your line)

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: Indeed, nothing's impossible, Fish. But what's more likely?

All factors must be weighed in. Once we weigh in the damage done to the victims, we can see that regardless if the torso killer lived in Chelsea, Kensington or Bethnal Green, he certainly was identical with the Ripper.

If you want to talk about likelihoods, what is more likely when we have victims with VERY unusual and VERY similar damage - that they were killed by one killer or multiple killers?

I think the word you're looking for is "optimism", Fish

I don´t care how optimistic you are about the possibilities that there were twin eviscerators at work in London in 1888 - it just won´t wash. Not in a million years.

You see, each and every one of your objections can be easily overcome. But you cannot overcome the inherent similarities between the two series. There the errand is settled. Nowhere else. What we should look at is how this man was able to do what he did. Now, that´s interesting!

[Fisherman]

That's not quite true, Sam.

Part of the trunk of the woman washed up near Rainham. There is a good possibility it traveled down the river from the west, unnoticed. That was the only part found that far east.

Here are the other parts from the Rainham Torso:

Thigh- found at Temple Pier (west of your line)
Part of the torso minus breasts- found on the foreshores of Battersea Park (west of your line)
Two arms- found at St Pancras Lock, Chalk Farm (northwest of your line)
Two legs- found at Regents Canal (west of your line)

I think Gareth may have borrowed Trows map and instructions. Which was never a good idea. Trow makes the exact same mistake. Correct me if I am wrong, Gareth.

[Sam Flynn]

That's not quite true, Sam.

Part of the trunk of the woman washed up near Rainham. There is a good possibility it traveled down the river from the west, unnoticed. That was the only part found that far east.

Here are the other parts from the Rainham Torso:

Thigh- found at Temple Pier (west of your line)
Part of the torso minus breasts- found on the foreshores of Battersea Park (west of your line)
Two arms- found at St Pancras Lock, Chalk Farm (northwest of your line)
Two legs- found at Regents Canal (west of your line)

Thanks Jerry - although "incomplete" would be a fairer summation than "not quite true". I just didn't have much detail at hand about the Rainham case, so I just marked where her torso was found.

Good to know that every other bit ended up in the West, though, including the other part of her torso at - yet again - Battersea. Which is consistent with the main thrust of my argument.

[Sam Flynn]

I think Gareth may have borrowed Trows map and instructions.

As I said earlier, I did base it on said map. Not that jerry's helpful intervention changes much; on the contrary, it only adds to the picture of a West London fixation.

[jerryd]

Thanks Jerry - although "incomplete" would be a fairer summation than "not quite true". I just didn't have much detail at hand about the Rainham case, so I just marked where her torso was found, which is true.

Good to know that every other bit ended up in the West, though, including the other part of her torso at - yet again - Battersea. Which is consistent with the main thrust of my argument.

I apologize, Gareth. Bad choice of words on my part.

I feel a majority of the parts from the Rainham case to the Jackson case could have been deposited in the river at very near the same spot even though they appeared to be dumped in different parts of town. This is due, of course, to the flow of the river as you mentioned earlier.

[Sam Flynn]

I don´t care how optimistic you are about the possibilities that there were twin eviscerators at work in London in 1888 - it just won´t wash. Not in a million years.

From what I can tell, we have one eviscerator at work in the East, who left his victims intact - albeit horribly mutilated - and on public view, and one or more people who chopped women up into bits and dumped the evidence in the Thames to the West. There may be another disarticulating murderer(s) responsible for the Pinchin Street torso, who - far from being eviscerated - seems only to have suffered a cut to the stomach.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What does everyone think about the ages of the victims? Trow says that 23-35 is the likely age range for the TK's victims but, apart from MJK, Jack's victims were mid to late 40's. Significant?

[Abby Normal]

From what I can tell, we have one eviscerator at work in the East, who left his victims intact - albeit horribly mutilated - and on public view, and one or more people who chopped women up into bits and dumped the evidence in the Thames to the West. There may be another disarticulating murderer(s) responsible for the Pinchin Street torso, who - far from being eviscerated - seems only to have suffered a cut to the stomach.

HI Sam
or one post mortem mutilator who liked to cut up women and remove body parts who moved around a bit, and who left body parts all around London.

lets not forget the torso in the New Scotland yard vault, the bits thrown into the shelley estate, and other non water dumping or displaying of body/parts including the ripper victims and the pinchin torso.

the torsos are not all about trying to "dump evidence in the Thames" clearly right?

and there really is nothing crazy about a single serial killer who may have two hunting grounds is there?

heck as far as we know, he may have picked up the torso victims in WC area and taken them back to a place to the west to kill, mutilate and dump/display.

heck as far as we know he may have picked up the victims in WC area, killed them in the WC area and taken left overs to the west and dumped/displayed.

In terms of where the body/parts are found I think there might be something going on here a lot deeper than trying to just get rid of them-another something meaningful to the killer. I mean he hardly made any overt attempts to hide/get rid of them did he?

[RockySullivan]

I apologize, Gareth. Bad choice of words on my part.

I feel a majority of the parts from the Rainham case to the Jackson case could have been deposited in the river at very near the same spot even though they appeared to be dumped in different parts of town. This is due, of course, to the flow of the river as you mentioned earlier.

jer what are the chances the parts were dumped by boat? what about someone working that stretch of the river? I've always thought the parts were dumped from bridges, banks or the sewer along the river. What was the reason that it was suggested Jackson was killed outside on the banks or nearby or on a boat?

[RockySullivan]

heck as far as we know he may have picked up the victims in WC area, killed them in the WC area and taken left overs to the west and dumped/displayed.

This ^ Jerry I'm sure you've looked but I wonder if there any missing persons from whitechapel around the time the torso victims disappeared

[jerryd]

jer what are the chances the parts were dumped by boat? what about someone working that stretch of the river?

Personally, I think it's a possibility. The Whitehall arm was found in the deal wharf owned by J.T Chappel and Company. Further research I did on the Chappel Company showed he owned timber yards in Battersea and Chelsea in addition to the Pimlico yard. He also owned two brick companies; one in Milton called the Milton Brick and Tile Co. and one in Benfleet called the London and County Brick Co. Benfleet is about 16 miles east of Rainham. I'm sure Chappel had his barges up and down the Thames from Battersea to Benfleet picking up and delivering bricks and lumber.