Same motive = same killer

[jerryd]

Ok thanks Fish
I though there was a 70s torso that was more in the 76/77 time frame but I guess not.

But yes, its actually not that rare for SKs to have extremely long gaps for whatever reasons in their activity so its not that big a deal to me.

Abby,

Are you thinking of Harriet Lane in 1875? She was murdered in 1874 and her body cut up a year later and was being transported to the younger brothers shop near the Thames when the Wainwrights were caught red handed.

[Abby Normal]

Abby,

Are you thinking of Harriet Lane in 1875? She was murdered in 1874 and her body cut up a year later and was being transported to the younger brothers shop near the Thames when the Wainwrights were caught red handed.

No, I don't think so-Not sure if I heard of this case.

its not really a torso case though is it since they were caught red handed? anyway please expound a little on this one-why did they kill her? why wait a year to cut her up and why were they taking the cut up body to a shop?

[Fisherman]

Gareth!

I´ve been thinking about your suggested scenario once more, and I really don´t think it makes any sense.
Why would Baxter elevate the level of skill the way you propose? Just what would he have been after? Are you suggesting he did it to give flight to his suggestion of that American doctor? That would be a bit daft, would it not? It was not the doctor who supposedly roamed the streets, looking for uteri - it would have been a task that was open to anybody, reasonably. So why would not Baxter simply have reasoned that whoever it was that took out Chapmans uterus made a shambles of it - but nevertheless got hold of the doctors request.
It would not make his proposal any less credible at all - and it would fit with the evidence, IF the evidence was that there was no skill at all involved.
Instead, you think that Baxter was willing to misrepresent Phillips in order to give the impression that there was something doctorish about that retrieval of Chapmans uterus.
And to top things off, it just so happens that a journalist simultaneously got it into his head to wildly exagerrate what Phillips had gleaned at the inquest? In "The Lancet", which was supposedly a paper with a very good reputation and very high standards already in 1888?

The idea calls fro not one, but TWO deviations from the truth, both from Baxter and from the journalist.

Whereas if we accept that Phillips WAS impressed by the skill evinced, then Baxter was quoting Phillips correctly and the Lancet journalist was doing the exact same thing.

And didn´t you say that you prefer the simplest and most logical explanation?

[jerryd]

No, I don't think so-Not sure if I heard of this case.

its not really a torso case though is it since they were caught red handed? anyway please expound a little on this one-why did they kill her? why wait a year to cut her up and why were they taking the cut up body to a shop?

No, not considered a torso case but with a dismembered body and trying to hide it in a shop near the Thames I thought perhaps it was what you were thinking about. And it was in the 1870's.

She was buried under the floorboards of their packaging shop in Whitechapel Road. A year later they were to be evicted and needed to get rid of the body. The younger brother, Thomas, had a shop (The Hen and Chickens) across London Bridge near the Thames that was the intended location to dump the remains after they dismembered the body for transport. They were caught during the transport of the body parts.

[Fisherman]

Further to the discussion about the supposed eagerness on behalf of the Lancet reporter to embellish and exaggerate things, this is how he treated the suggestion about the american doctor that Baxter relayed:

" The whole tale is almost past belief; and if, as we think, it can be shown to have grown in transmission, it will not only shatter the theory that cupidity was the motive of the crime, but will bring into question the discretion of the officer of the law who could accept such and statement and give it such wide publicity. The pleas that the interests of justice will be furthered thereby cannot be sustained. Such information as was given to the coroner would have been far more appropriately placed at the disposal of the Home Office and the police; for the clue, if there is one, was for them to follow up. In our opinion a grave error in judgement was made by the coroner's informant in this respect. The public mind--ever too ready to cast mud at legitimate research--will hardly fail to be excited to a pitch of animosity against anatomists and curators, which may take a long while to subside. And, what is equally deplorable, the revelation thus made by the coroner, which so dramatically startled the public last Wednesday evening, may probably lead to a diversion from the real track of the murderer, and thus defeat rather than serve the ends of justice. We believe the story to be highly improbable, although it may have a small basis of fact, which will require the exercise of much common sense to separate form the sensational fiction that surrounds it."

What I read here are the words of a man who very much dislikes any deviation from the truth, any sensationalism and any embellishing. Correct me if I´m wrong.

[John Wheat]

Yes! Or Bury!!!

What as you mean it's likely Bury was The Ripper.

[John Wheat]

Hi John
Yes. For Chapman to be a suspect an even more drastic change in MO between him and the ripper. Actually a more drastic change than the ripper and torsoman.

Compared to bury, Chapman’s change in MO is huge, which is why I got bury ahead of Chapman, and I don’t care what SUgden says. ; )

But the murder of Bury's wife is far more similar to a Ripper murder than any of the Torso Murders.

[Fisherman]

What as you mean it's likely Bury was The Ripper.

Almost as likely as Chapman, in fact!

[Fisherman]

But the murder of Bury's wife is far more similar to a Ripper murder than any of the Torso Murders.

No.

If you look at Liz Jackson, it was believed that she had her neck cut and died from that. All five canonicals had, Ellen Bury did not.

She had her abdomen cut from pubes to ribs. Four out of the five canonicals had - Ellen Bury did not.

She had her uterus taken out. Three out of four canonicals did - Ellen Bury did not.

She had her heart taken out. Kelly did - Ellen Bury did not.

She had rings taken from her fingers. Chapman did - Ellen Bury did not.

Ellen Bury is nowhere near as close to the Ripper victims as Jackson is.

[John Wheat]

No.

If you look at Liz Jackson, it was believed that she had her neck cut and died from that. All five canonicals had, Ellen Bury did not.

She had her abdomen cut from pubes to ribs. Four out of the five canonicals had - Ellen Bury did not.

She had her uterus taken out. Three out of four canonicals did - Ellen Bury did not.

She had her heart taken out. Kelly did - Ellen Bury did not.

She had rings taken from her fingers. Chapman did - Ellen Bury did not.

Ellen Bury is nowhere near as close to the Ripper victims as Jackson is.

Garbage. It's not proven Liz Jackson had her neck cut. It's likely the Ripper used a ligature, as Bury did with his wife. Only one Ripper victim had there heart taken out. The Ripper used mutilation as did Bury. The Ripper didn't dismember, neither did Bury the Torso Killer did. The Ripper didn't remove heads, nor did Bury, the Torso Killer did.

[jerryd]

Debs,

I forgot to address something you mentioned earlier; the size of the portion of vault where the body was found.

This is from the Hull Daily Mail, Oct 3, 1888.

"I went down into one of the cellars, which is about 20 feet by 15 feet in size, to look round, when I saw a parcel lying in a corner, as though it had been thrown down carelessly. I might say the cellar is really part of the half finished basement of what are to be the new police offices."

To me this sounds like the actual vault in which the body was found was 20x15 or thereabouts. Also, when I was reviewing Wainwright's case in response to Abby, I noticed something that is kind of relevant here. A witness in that case, Charles Titiens, stated in June of 1875 when visiting the premises Wainwright owned at 215 Whitechapel Road, he noticed a stench in the back of the premises. He continued to smell it for about a month. June would have been about 9 months after Harriet was buried in the floorboards. He went there on occasion to pack goods. He told Wainwright that some ashes piled up in that area might be causing the stench and to have them removed. Wainwright did not remove them so Titiens bought some Chloride of Lime and sprinkled it over the ashes himself. He says after the second application of the COL he did not notice the smell.

This brings me to two things. First, it's interesting the body had a noticeable odor nine months after being buried in the floor boards. With the Whitehall torso we are talking a much shorter time in the decaying process so I would think the odor from that corpse would have been even greater. Second, if the Whitehall corpse was in fact laying in the vault since late August or early September and nobody could smell it, maybe Condy's Fluid was being applied to the corpse periodically to keep the smell away. If that's the case, who had opportunity to be going into the vault to periodically apply Condy's Fluid?

[jerryd]

Garbage. It's not proven Liz Jackson had her neck cut.

Did her head just fall off, John?

[Fisherman]

Garbage. It's not proven Liz Jackson had her neck cut. It's likely the Ripper used a ligature, as Bury did with his wife. Only one Ripper victim had there heart taken out. The Ripper used mutilation as did Bury. The Ripper didn't dismember, neither did Bury the Torso Killer did. The Ripper didn't remove heads, nor did Bury, the Torso Killer did.

Liz Jacksons head was taken away from her body, so we may be reasonably certain that her neck was cut, John. And if you want to deem the idea that she had her carotid arteries severed to kill her, then it is the medicos of the case you should approach and tell them that you are a much better judge of this than they were.
It may prove too tough a task for you, if I am not much mistaken.

What I listed stands. The fact that Jackson was subsequently dismembered does not alter my points. Ellen Bury is a very meager bid compared to Jackson, and I would say that around 99 per cent of the posters out here will recognize that.

And then there´s you.

[Fisherman]

Did her head just fall off, John?

Nah, I think that somebody else may have lost his head though...

[Fisherman]

Debs,

I forgot to address something you mentioned earlier; the size of the portion of vault where the body was found.

This is from the Hull Daily Mail, Oct 3, 1888.

"I went down into one of the cellars, which is about 20 feet by 15 feet in size, to look round, when I saw a parcel lying in a corner, as though it had been thrown down carelessly. I might say the cellar is really part of the half finished basement of what are to be the new police offices."

To me this sounds like the actual vault in which the body was found was 20x15 or thereabouts. Also, when I was reviewing Wainwright's case in response to Abby, I noticed something that is kind of relevant here. A witness in that case, Charles Titiens, stated in June of 1875 when visiting the premises Wainwright owned at 215 Whitechapel Road, he noticed a stench in the back of the premises. He continued to smell it for about a month. June would have been about 9 months after Harriet was buried in the floorboards. He went there on occasion to pack goods. He told Wainwright that some ashes piled up in that area might be causing the stench and to have them removed. Wainwright did not remove them so Titiens bought some Chloride of Lime and sprinkled it over the ashes himself. He says after the second application of the COL he did not notice the smell.

This brings me to two things. First, it's interesting the body had a noticeable odor nine months after being buried in the floor boards. With the Whitehall torso we are talking a much shorter time in the decaying process so I would think the odor from that corpse would have been even greater. Second, if the Whitehall corpse was in fact laying in the vault since late August or early September and nobody could smell it, maybe Condy's Fluid was being applied to the corpse periodically to keep the smell away. If that's the case, who had opportunity to be going into the vault to periodically apply Condy's Fluid?

Wait a sec, Jerry - are you seriously suggesting that Wildbore put the torso in the cellar vaults of the New Scotland Yard - and then went down there and sprinkled it with Condy´s fluid so that it would go unnoticed? Then why put it there in the first place...?

Then again, there has to be SOME sort of solution, and when the likely ones do not work....

As for the smell given of by old corpses, I do believe that graves from hundreds of years ago have been found by dogs trained to smell for bodily decay.
Not that we have the same sense of smell, but anyway!