Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

Fisherman, the varying rates of decay are mentioned with the Whitehall case, the arm had decayed in water, the trunk in air and the leg with foot had decayed at a rate consistent with being buried. I don't recall it with any torso cases where body parts were found at the same time like the leg and trunk in the vault. The leg was also found two weeks after the trunk in the same vault so had a further two weeks worth of decay that was still less severe than the trunk
The killer would have had to replicate the conditions of the vault discoveries in his storage arrangements-that is, kept the leg buried and the trunk in open air and then took them to the vault and placed the torso in air against the wall and buried the leg.

One explanation that works well is that the trunk and leg were placed there at the same time and the leg buried accidentally when the drainage trenches were dug, without it being spotted. The drainage was dug six weeks previously (from the finding of the leg) as Bond and Habbert stated
.
Then there's the question of whether or not Bond and Hebbert dated the death back to late August simply because of the arm found at Pimlico and them believing it was from the same body.

Hmmm ... okay, thanks for that! I need to recheck a couple of things. I agree that the accidental burying suggestion is one that makes sense.

[Fisherman]

The vault measured 30 feet long, 24 feet wide and 12 feet deep with loose wooden planking that cut out the sunlight from above according to Paul Begg in The Forgotten Victims. That's 10 yards by 8 yards. Not a very large space by any means not to notice the smell of a month old rotting body.

.... filled up with maggots and oozing black bodily fluids! No, I am with you totally on this - it must have produced a hellish smell. Surely people back then were not THAT used to foul odours?

[Debra A]

The vault measured 30 feet long, 24 feet wide and 12 feet deep with loose wooden planking that cut out the sunlight from above according to Paul Begg in The Forgotten Victims. That's 10 yards by 8 yards. Not a very large space by any means not to notice the smell of a month old rotting body.

Is that the vault or the recess in the vault, Jerry?
I'm not clear on this bit so I may have it wrong here. From some descriptions it sounds like the body was in the vault against the wall and men say they would have trodden on it if it were there when they left their tools, measured up etc.
Then we have workmen saying they wouldn't have noticed anything because it was too dark when they fetched their tools but then we have Hedge who was questioned as to why he was so certain there was no body in the recess when he went to fetch his hammer. He says it was because he struck a match in the recess to look. We learn there that Hedge's hammer was stored opposite to where the body was found and he was specifically asked why in that case he struck a match in to the 'recess' if he didn't need to go in there.
Was there a recess with a covering in the vault or not? I can't work it out.

[Debra A]

.... filled up with maggots and oozing black bodily fluids! No, I am with you totally on this - it must have produced a hellish smell. Surely people back then were not THAT used to foul odours?

Fisherman, in that case, why do you think that no one noticed the smell on Monday when Wildbore saw the parcel in the vault as he stated but didn't tell anyone until Tuesday? I can understand Jerry's scenario over this aspect because he is suspicious of Wildbore but what would be the explanation for a killer who didn't work at the vaults? How do you reconcile none of the workmen smelling anything on Monday when they entered the vault for their tools, given that Wildbore saw the parcel then?

[Debra A]

Debra, do you have more info on the vaults being used to sleep in?

It's a brief mention in Rob's article, again, Rocky, And something I just noticed but I'll have a look and see if I can see anything else.

[Fisherman]

Fisherman, in that case, why do you think that no one noticed the smell on Monday when Wildbore saw the parcel in the vault as he stated but didn't tell anyone until Tuesday? I can understand Jerry's scenario over this aspect because he is suspicious of Wildbore but what would be the explanation for a killer who didn't work at the vaults? How do you reconcile none of the workmen smelling anything on Monday when they entered the vault for their tools, given that Wildbore saw the parcel then?

Well, the thing is that no matter how we turn it around, we are faced with problems that are hard to solve. I guess if the body had been disinfected with Condys fluid, I think that may have helped take the odour away. But I donīt think that it would have worked for a period of many weeks, and so that is a reason to accept that the torso may not have been there for more than a very short period of time before Wildbore saw it.

One may also reflect on how Wildbore DID see it on the Monday, meaning that if it was put there in the weekend, it was quickly enough registered. If it was put there a month earlier, then why did nobody at all see it for a period of many weeks?

When I look at it like this, I tend to think that the torso had arrived in the weekend, having been given a good sprinkling of Condys fluid (not to prevent finding it, but perhaps more likely because the killer had kept the torso at home as long as possible, repeating the sprinkling process), and that kept the smell away for some little time.

You had been subjected to the smell of rotting flesh too, and so you will know just how piercing that odour is. I find the idea that draft would do away with it untenable, just as I am having problems believing that putting it in a recess would do the trick. I sometimes read about people who die at home, and lie dead for weeks - what gives them away is invariably how the smell creeps out from behind a modern apartment door. There is no stopping it.

Once I arrive at this conclusion it is all fine and dandy until I have to face Bonds assertion that bodily fluids had seeped into the wall behind the torso, and that this must have been something that had happened over the longest time. Then it all becomes difficult again.

If the body was put there on, say, Saturday, is it possible that thos bodily fluids had been present to such a degree in the rotting torso that the relatively fresh concrete of the walls sucked up so much of it as to give the impression that it had been going on for a much longer time?

I canīt say. All I can say is that the kind of smell produced by rotting flesh is not easily hidden.

[Abby Normal]

Well, the thing is that no matter how we turn it around, we are faced with problems that are hard to solve. I guess if the body had been disinfected with Condys fluid, I think that may have helped take the odour away. But I donīt think that it would have worked for a period of many weeks, and so that is a reason to accept that the torso may not have been there for more than a very short period of time before Wildbore saw it.

One may also reflect on how Wildbore DID see it on the Monday, meaning that if it was put there in the weekend, it was quickly enough registered. If it was put there a month earlier, then why did nobody at all see it for a period of many weeks?

When I look at it like this, I tend to think that the torso had arrived in the weekend, having been given a good sprinkling of Condys fluid (not to prevent finding it, but perhaps more likely because the killer had kept the torso at home as long as possible, repeating the sprinkling process), and that kept the smell away for some little time.

You had been subjected to the smell of rotting flesh too, and so you will know just how piercing that odour is. I find the idea that draft would do away with it untenable, just as I am having problems believing that putting it in a recess would do the trick. I sometimes read about people who die at home, and lie dead for weeks - what gives them away is invariably how the smell creeps out from behind a modern apartment door. There is no stopping it.

Once I arrive at this conclusion it is all fine and dandy until I have to face Bonds assertion that bodily fluids had seeped into the wall behind the torso, and that this must have been something that had happened over the longest time. Then it all becomes difficult again.

If the body was put there on, say, Saturday, is it possible that thos ebodily fluids had been present to such a degree in the rotting torso that the relatively fresh concrete of the walls sucked up so much of it as to give the impression that it had been going on for a much longer time?

I canīt say. All I can say is that the kind of smell produced by rotting flesh is not easily hidden.

Hi Fish and Debs

even if it was wildbore no one appeared to have noticed the smell.

I'm coming to the conclusion, that for whatever reason, they just didn't notice the smell to the extent they had to go looking for what caused it.

it might be just as simple as that.

[jerryd]

Fisherman, in that case, why do you think that no one noticed the smell on Monday when Wildbore saw the parcel in the vault as he stated but didn't tell anyone until Tuesday? I can understand Jerry's scenario over this aspect because he is suspicious of Wildbore but what would be the explanation for a killer who didn't work at the vaults? How do you reconcile none of the workmen smelling anything on Monday when they entered the vault for their tools, given that Wildbore saw the parcel then?

Debs,

Three weeks prior to the discovery the men constructed some sort of locker for safe keeping their tools. Ernest Edge was in charge of putting the nail in the locker at the end of the shift and making sure the site was locked up. He claims he thought he left his hammer at the parcel end of the vault and then realized his mistake that it was on the mortar board at the other end of the vault. Trying not to impose my suspicions of Wildbore here, but he chose not to use the locker to safe keep his tools, instead using the dark vault because he felt it was safer.

I don't see anyone other than Richard Lawrence stating he was in the vault on Monday other than Wildbore. Why would they be if their tools were in a locker which I highly suspect was not in the dark vault? The men mention retrieving tools on Saturday and mention being in or near the vault on Tuesday, but not on Monday. So if the body was in there on Monday, as Wildbore says, then what men would have been in the vault on Monday to smell it?

[Debra A]

Debs,

Three weeks prior to the discovery the men constructed some sort of locker for safe keeping their tools. Ernest Edge was in charge of putting the nail in the locker at the end of the shift and making sure the site was locked up. He claims he thought he left his hammer at the parcel end of the vault and then realized his mistake that it was on the mortar board at the other end of the vault. Trying not to impose my suspicions of Wildbore here, but he chose not to use the locker to safe keep his tools, instead using the dark vault because he felt it was safer.

I don't see anyone other than Richard Lawrence stating he was in the vault on Monday other than Wildbore. Why would they be if their tools were in a locker which I highly suspect was not in the dark vault? The men mention retrieving tools on Saturday and mention being in or near the vault on Tuesday, but not on Monday. So if the body was in there on Monday, as Wildbore says, then what men would have been in the vault on Monday to smell it?

Thanks, Jerry, isn't there also mention of a work colleague being with Wildbore when he went to fetch his tools on Monday? Had they already been collected by another workman too?
Yes, Richard Lawrence claimed that when he collected his tools from the vault on Monday it was too dark to see if there had been a parcel there. Would he have said that if he didn't go in to the actual vault the body was found in?
Didn't the workmen all leave their tools on Saturday for safe keeping on Sunday? Why wouldn't they need to retrieve their tools on Monday for their days work and why were they questioned about seeing the parcel if they weren't in the place the body was found?

[Debra A]

Hi Fish and Debs

even if it was wildbore no one appeared to have noticed the smell.

I'm coming to the conclusion, that for whatever reason, they just didn't notice the smell to the extent they had to go looking for what caused it.

it might be just as simple as that.

Yes, I;m thinking the same thing, Abby

[Debra A]

Well, the thing is that no matter how we turn it around, we are faced with problems that are hard to solve. I guess if the body had been disinfected with Condys fluid, I think that may have helped take the odour away. But I donīt think that it would have worked for a period of many weeks, and so that is a reason to accept that the torso may not have been there for more than a very short period of time before Wildbore saw it.

One may also reflect on how Wildbore DID see it on the Monday, meaning that if it was put there in the weekend, it was quickly enough registered. If it was put there a month earlier, then why did nobody at all see it for a period of many weeks?

When I look at it like this, I tend to think that the torso had arrived in the weekend, having been given a good sprinkling of Condys fluid (not to prevent finding it, but perhaps more likely because the killer had kept the torso at home as long as possible, repeating the sprinkling process), and that kept the smell away for some little time.

You had been subjected to the smell of rotting flesh too, and so you will know just how piercing that odour is. I find the idea that draft would do away with it untenable, just as I am having problems believing that putting it in a recess would do the trick. I sometimes read about people who die at home, and lie dead for weeks - what gives them away is invariably how the smell creeps out from behind a modern apartment door. There is no stopping it.

Once I arrive at this conclusion it is all fine and dandy until I have to face Bonds assertion that bodily fluids had seeped into the wall behind the torso, and that this must have been something that had happened over the longest time. Then it all becomes difficult again.

If the body was put there on, say, Saturday, is it possible that thos bodily fluids had been present to such a degree in the rotting torso that the relatively fresh concrete of the walls sucked up so much of it as to give the impression that it had been going on for a much longer time?

I canīt say. All I can say is that the kind of smell produced by rotting flesh is not easily hidden.

Thanks Fisherman. I guess you are thinking that the Cony's fluid was used during transportation of the rotting trunk and was still masking the smell on Monday when Wildbore entered the vault but that by Tuesday the stench was very strong?

The walls of the vault were brick and the bricks were heavily stained, I wonder how someone would transport a corpse in to the vault that was oozing fluid through decay? It would have been pretty messy and also I was thinking about the scent. Smoker was able to get on the scent of the leg after he was taken to the spot where the trunk was placed and picked up the smell. Wouldn't the smell of the rotting trunk or the Condy's fluid have a wider trace for the dog if they had been brought in at a late stage of decay.

Someone (sorry, I have forgotten who) mentioned a lot earlier in the thread that a blood hound and another terrier were brought in to the vault before Smoker but I'm not sure if that is correct. I thought they were brought in afterwards but didn't get chance to post at the time. I will check this as well though because my memory isn't as good as it once was.

[jerryd]

Thanks, Jerry, isn't there also mention of a work colleague being with Wildbore when he went to fetch his tools on Monday? Had they already been collected by another workman too?
Yes, Richard Lawrence claimed that when he collected his tools from the vault on Monday it was too dark to see if there had been a parcel there. Would he have said that if he didn't go in to the actual vault the body was found in?
Didn't the workmen all leave their tools on Saturday for safe keeping on Sunday? Why wouldn't they need to retrieve their tools on Monday for their days work and why were they questioned about seeing the parcel if they weren't in the place the body was found?

Debs,

I believe other than Wildbore, Richard Lawrence may have been the only other man in the vault on Monday. Yes, I believe the men left their tools on Saturday, however I think the majority of them kept them in the new locker and I don't think the locker was in the same vault as the one where the body was found. For example one man states he may have been near the vault on Monday, certainly on Tuesday.

All of the men had been in that dark recess at one time or another. I think they were questioned as to when they were in there and what did they see/smell at the time they were in there. I just don't see any of them in inquest testimony stating they were in there on Monday, except for Lawrence and Wildbore. When I say in there, I mean the dark recess where the body was found. I think they were in another part of the vault to retrieve tools from the locker. The vaults had been completed for 3 months at this point and the last known construction in that vault was the carpenters doing some work the week before the discovery.

[jerryd]

Someone (sorry, I have forgotten who) mentioned a lot earlier in the thread that a blood hound and another terrier were brought in to the vault before Smoker but I'm not sure if that is correct. I thought they were brought in afterwards but didn't get chance to post at the time. I will check this as well though because my memory isn't as good as it once was.

Debs,

Post #1381

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10520&page=139

The paper might have been wrong of course, Detective Rose said he went in with dogs before the 17th, which was when Jasper Waring went in.

[Fisherman]

Thanks Fisherman. I guess you are thinking that the Cony's fluid was used during transportation of the rotting trunk and was still masking the smell on Monday when Wildbore entered the vault but that by Tuesday the stench was very strong?

The walls of the vault were brick and the bricks were heavily stained, I wonder how someone would transport a corpse in to the vault that was oozing fluid through decay? It would have been pretty messy and also I was thinking about the scent. Smoker was able to get on the scent of the leg after he was taken to the spot where the trunk was placed and picked up the smell. Wouldn't the smell of the rotting trunk or the Condy's fluid have a wider trace for the dog if they had been brought in at a late stage of decay.

Someone (sorry, I have forgotten who) mentioned a lot earlier in the thread that a blood hound and another terrier were brought in to the vault before Smoker but I'm not sure if that is correct. I thought they were brought in afterwards but didn't get chance to post at the time. I will check this as well though because my memory isn't as good as it once was.

Youīve got a point when it comes to transporting a half-fluid torso, of course - it would have been extremely messy. But overall, the kind of people who commit crimes like the ones we are looking at will judge things according to other scales than we do.

I am not saying that the torso must have arrived late in the process, I am saying that I find it extremely odd if it was there all the time and was not sniffed out (so sorry about that one).

I donīt really want to get into a discussion about which scenario fits best with Lechmere - believe it or not but I am trying to keep as objective as possible when it comes to these matters.

Maybe Abby is spot on, just as you suspect. It would be welcome if anybody of us was. But I still say that it seems very odd to me that the torso was not discovered - or smelled - during this long period of time. But sometimes things ARE odd, and thatīs all there is to it.

Going to bed now, with a buzzing and slightly aching head. But itīs worth it.

[Debra A]

Debs,

I believe other than Wildbore, Richard Lawrence may have been the only other man in the vault on Monday. Yes, I believe the men left their tools on Saturday, however I think the majority of them kept them in the new locker and I don't think the locker was in the same vault as the one where the body was found. For example one man states he may have been near the vault on Monday, certainly on Tuesday.

All of the men had been in that dark recess at one time or another. I think they were questioned as to when they were in there and what did they see/smell at the time they were in there. I just don't see any of them in inquest testimony stating they were in there on Monday, except for Lawrence and Wildbore. When I say in there, I mean the dark recess where the body was found. I think they were in another part of the vault to retrieve tools from the locker. The vaults had been completed for 3 months at this point and the last known construction in that vault was the carpenters doing some work the week before the discovery.

Thanks, Jerry. was Richard Lawrence 'the mate' that Wildbore said he was with when he went to retrieve his tools from the vault on Monday?