Same motive = same killer

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky
The Condy's fluid was a disinfectant I believe? Bond ordered the trunk to be disinfected immediately because he felt it a health hazard. I wonder if there had been some confusion as to who did the discinfecting? Who first mentioned the Condy's fluid I wonder?

Debs, potassium permanganate is a strong oxidant which I believe is used to cover up smells. your suggestion about Bond would make sense, but I am sure I have read jerry post of another body part that was covered in condy's powder?

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Rocky
The Condy's fluid was a disinfectant I believe? Bond ordered the trunk to be disinfected immediately because he felt it a health hazard. I wonder if there had been some confusion as to who did the discinfecting? Who first mentioned the Condy's fluid I wonder?

I think I brought this up earlier in the thread; a journalist noted the body had the appearance of having been wiped with Condy's fluid at the autopsy, which is obviously after the doctors had it disinfected.
It probably carries more weight if you say it though :-)

[jerryd]

Debs, potassium permanganate is a strong oxidant which I believe is used to cover up smells. your suggestion about Bond would make sense, but I am sure I have read jerry post of another body part that was covered in condy's powder?

Rocky,

The only other torso I recall was parts of the Tottenham torso were covered with Chloride of lime. Also I believe the Lambeth arm may have been covered in lime IIRC but it was unrelated apparently to the torsos in our discussion.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Joshua,

I'm sure the smell was worse once it was opened but I find it hard to believe it had no odor at all that was noticeable.

Then we have to account for about six witnesses that were in the vault and did not see the parcel before that Tuesday. These witnesses range from Clerk of the Works to Foremen to laborers. One man was in that exact corner measuring and did not see the parcel. Most of these witnesses say if it had been there, they would have seen it. One stated emphatically, it was not there.

Debs, you mentioned the hoarding the parcel may have been hidden behind or under. Wildbore stated that the parcel was in the open and had not moved since the day before when he saw it. Not saying it wasn't under the hoarding but according to Wildbore, it was in the open and visible.

Maybe you're right Jerry. Anyone fancy leaving a joint of meat in their garage for a month to find out?

I thought the hoarding story (in the Star, from memory) might explain why nobody saw the parcel, but it doesn't seem to be backed up by any other reports, and as you say, is contradicted in some cases.

[Joshua Rogan]

Rocky,

The only other torso I recall was parts of the Tottenham torso were covered with Chloride of lime. Also I believe the Lambeth arm may have been covered in lime IIRC but it was unrelated apparently to the torsos in our discussion.

Yes, the Lambeth arm had been sprinkled with lime and was wrappped in canvas. It was also just bones (apparently including the shoulderblade, so not part of the torso) and so presumed to have been dug up (as a prank?) from a burial.

[Debra A]

I think I brought this up earlier in the thread; a journalist noted the body had the appearance of having been wiped with Condy's fluid at the autopsy, which is obviously after the doctors had it disinfected.
It probably carries more weight if you say it though :-)

Well you have to have been saying something for 12 years before anyone takes any notice of you, JR I've done my time on the torsos.

[RockySullivan]

Rocky,

The only other torso I recall was parts of the Tottenham torso were covered with Chloride of lime. Also I believe the Lambeth arm may have been covered in lime IIRC but it was unrelated apparently to the torsos in our discussion.

So the Whitehall torso is the only reference to Condy's? I thought the Whitehall torso mentioned condy's fluid and another case mentioned condy's powder. either way, condy's and chloride of lime are both deodorants.

[RockySullivan]

I think I brought this up earlier in the thread; a journalist noted the body had the appearance of having been wiped with Condy's fluid at the autopsy, which is obviously after the doctors had it disinfected.
It probably carries more weight if you say it though :-)

Joshua I assume you are referring to this passage?

A representative of The Daily Telegraph, who saw the remains within half-an-hour of their discovery, states that the body, placed on its back, was wrapped in a skirt of some stuff like black mohair, and the steel dress improver was included in the parcel. The flesh had a dark reddish hue, as if it had been plentifully sprinkled with antiseptic, such as Condy's fluid. Decomposition, however, had made rapid strides within, for the remains were in an advanced state of putrefaction. The criss-cross marks of the cords had sunk deeply into the skin, but otherwise there were no appearances of wounds except where the rough edges indicated the brutal, bungling manner in which the head, limbs, and lower part of the body had been dissevered. Evidently the corpse was that of a mature, well-formed, and perhaps an unmarried woman, not over forty years of age, and who was probably alive about twenty days ago.

[jerryd]

Well you have to have been saying something for 12 years before anyone takes any notice of you, JR I've done my time on the torsos.

Umm, I learned 98% of my torso information from you and Rob. The other 2% is my psycho babbling.

[Debra A]

Debs, you mentioned the hoarding the parcel may have been hidden behind or under. Wildbore stated that the parcel was in the open and had not moved since the day before when he saw it. Not saying it wasn't under the hoarding but according to Wildbore, it was in the open and visible.

I was quoting from Rob's article. Jerry. I didn't realise before that the body was in a recess in the vault and not just in the vault where the tools were kept.

Three of the workmen who stored their tools in the vault opposite the recess at the weekend apparently said it was too dark to see anything in there and only Hedge seemed adamant that there was no body in the recess when he went to collect his hammer. His hammer was stored opposite so he was specifically asked why he struck a match to look in to the recess if that was the case. He didn't specify why, but it's a good question.

[Joshua Rogan]

Joshua I assume you are referring to this passage?

A representative of The Daily Telegraph, who saw the remains within half-an-hour of their discovery, states that the body, placed on its back, was wrapped in a skirt of some stuff like black mohair, and the steel dress improver was included in the parcel. The flesh had a dark reddish hue, as if it had been plentifully sprinkled with antiseptic, such as Condy's fluid. Decomposition, however, had made rapid strides within, for the remains were in an advanced state of putrefaction. The criss-cross marks of the cords had sunk deeply into the skin, but otherwise there were no appearances of wounds except where the rough edges indicated the brutal, bungling manner in which the head, limbs, and lower part of the body had been dissevered. Evidently the corpse was that of a mature, well-formed, and perhaps an unmarried woman, not over forty years of age, and who was probably alive about twenty days ago.

Hmm, I don't think it was that report I was thinking of...I'm sure I would have noticed the bit about "saw the remains within half-an-hour of their discovery"....you've got me wondering now.

[Debra A]

Umm, I learned 98% of my torso information from you and Rob. The other 2% is my psycho babbling.

You've contributed a lot of interesting new research, Jerry. I think discussions like this are worthwhile because it causes people to think differently. There's a lot of interest in the torso cases now but as I said on JTForums a little while back, most of what we know now has come through research. I've slogged long and hard to get people to agree and accept what mutilations were inflicted on Elizabeth Jackson.

The workman link is a plausible scenario.
I also noted that there is a bit of a link to homelessness and sleeping rough in a small way. Elizabeth Jackson was sleeping rough on the embankment when she was murdered, the Whitehall vaults were said to be used by the homeless to sleep in, and the Pinchin St arches actually had homeless people sleeping in them.

[Debra A]

Joshua I assume you are referring to this passage?

A representative of The Daily Telegraph, who saw the remains within half-an-hour of their discovery, states that the body, placed on its back, was wrapped in a skirt of some stuff like black mohair, and the steel dress improver was included in the parcel. The flesh had a dark reddish hue, as if it had been plentifully sprinkled with antiseptic, such as Condy's fluid. Decomposition, however, had made rapid strides within, for the remains were in an advanced state of putrefaction. The criss-cross marks of the cords had sunk deeply into the skin, but otherwise there were no appearances of wounds except where the rough edges indicated the brutal, bungling manner in which the head, limbs, and lower part of the body had been dissevered. Evidently the corpse was that of a mature, well-formed, and perhaps an unmarried woman, not over forty years of age, and who was probably alive about twenty days ago.

Thanks, Rocky. That is an observation before the mortuary disinfectant by Bond then. Some of the press thought those criss cross lines mentioned were evidence of breast surgery but they were made by the string.

[jerryd]

The vault measured 30 feet long, 24 feet wide and 12 feet deep with loose wooden planking that cut out the sunlight from above according to Paul Begg in The Forgotten Victims. That's 10 yards by 8 yards. Not a very large space by any means not to notice the smell of a month old rotting body.

[RockySullivan]

Debra, do you have more info on the vaults being used to sleep in?