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  • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
    After re-reading the inquest in the London Standard, October 9, 1888 it looks like Wildbore drew his mate's attention to the parcel on Tuesday morning. Not Monday like I mentioned in my earlier post.

    Wildbore saw what appeared to be an old coat in the corner of the recess on Monday morning at 6 a.m. when he went to pick up his tools. He went again into the vault that same evening (Monday) at 5:30 with his tools and saw the parcel again and said nothing to anyone. The next morning (Tuesday) he again saw the parcel and pointed it out to a mate and struck a wax vesta. He said he and the mate looked closely at it, but neither formed an opinion what it was. That afternoon at about 2:30 he drew Mr. Brown's (assistant foreman) attention to the parcel. Mr. Brown notified Mr. Cheney and it was then a labourer was sent to retrieve the parcel.

    Sam, it appears the last time anyone was in the vault was on Saturday. Except for Wildbore, who was in there the day before the discovery. As far back as the 22nd of August witnesses were in the vault measuring, placing tools, etc and not one can say they saw a parcel in the vault. In fact, they swore up and down it was not there. Many of the witnesses were in that very corner with lamps and still never saw it prior to Tuesday when it was discovered.
    Which weekend was the worker seen at the job site?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
      Jerry
      Yes, if Wildbore was somehow involved then him saying the parcel was there the day before would obviously be a cover story but then again, if the killer and dumper was someone who didn't work in the vault we'd have to explain why Wildbore didn't noticed the smell on Monday, if the stench was overwhelming as said. I've smelt a decaying human body. The stench burns your nostrils it's so bad it penetrates everywhere and lingers.
      So in your scenario with Wildbore having something to do with it, it works but if Wildbore did innocently notice the parcel the day before but didn't notice the smell, then the conclusion would be that the smell was worse after the opening of the parcel?
      The interesting thing to me is Wildbore saw the parcel 3 times before it he drew attention to it. On one occasion he 'looked closely' at it with a wax vesta. As you say, the smell penetrates everywhere. The man on the bus near the obelisk story comes to mind, the guy carrying a parcel that stunk even though it was wrapped up.

      I just don't see how this parcel could not have smelled in a closed in area like it was. If it were there since August, as Bond exclaims, surely the smell would have gotten worse and worse over time.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
        And why was the leg less decayed than the badly decomposed torso? Hebbert and Bond said it was because it was buried and the torso decayed in air. If a killer stored the torso and leg elsewhere and brought them to the vault the day before dicovery, how were they stored to account for the difference in decay rates? Are people suggesting the torso was stored in air and the leg buried at some other place previously?
        That's why I've always felt the condy's fluid/powder was a good explanation. And it was found one of the other body parts from a different torso case wasn't it? How did the police who were investigating not go back to the worker who was seen during the weekend? The torso was also found with august 14 paper. especially with those two account Joshua just posted, I think longer side is possible

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        • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
          And why was the leg less decayed than the badly decomposed torso? Hebbert and Bond said it was because it was buried and the torso decayed in air. If a killer stored the torso and leg elsewhere and brought them to the vault the day before dicovery, how were they stored to account for the difference in decay rates? Are people suggesting the torso was stored in air and the leg buried at some other place previously?
          That is an excellent question, Debra - it sounds very weird indeed. Then again, weird seems to be par for the course throughout...

          There are, I believe, examples of varying degrees of decay with some of the torsos, are there not? Some parts seemed to have been in the river for much longer than others or something like that? Perhaps pointing to how the killer may have been able to conserve parts? Correct me if I am fabling here, but I seem to remember that this point has been made somewhere (Dear God, please don´t let it be Trow again...)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
            Which weekend was the worker seen at the job site?
            THE WHITEHALL MYSTERY.


            The information from a person at Llanelly, SOuth Wales, to the effect that on the Saturday before the discovery at Whitehall he saw a man climb the railings, other men, with a truck on which was a bag, being in waiting, has been investigated by the detective officers who have the case in hand, with the results that the incident has been ascertained to have no connexion with the placing of the trunk in the vault. A workman got over the railings in Cannon-row to open a door which was fastened from the inside, so as to enable another man to carry in a bag of sand which was on the truck. Inspector Marshall and Sergeant Rose yesterday morning were pursuing their inquiries in the neighbourhood of Pimlico. A theory has been advanced that the murdered woman was a foreign "unfortunate."

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            • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
              THE WHITEHALL MYSTERY.


              The information from a person at Llanelly, SOuth Wales, to the effect that on the Saturday before the discovery at Whitehall he saw a man climb the railings, other men, with a truck on which was a bag, being in waiting, has been investigated by the detective officers who have the case in hand, with the results that the incident has been ascertained to have no connexion with the placing of the trunk in the vault. A workman got over the railings in Cannon-row to open a door which was fastened from the inside, so as to enable another man to carry in a bag of sand which was on the truck. Inspector Marshall and Sergeant Rose yesterday morning were pursuing their inquiries in the neighbourhood of Pimlico. A theory has been advanced that the murdered woman was a foreign "unfortunate."
              see I mean that sure sounds exactly what dumping the torso would be like with two men, and it's goddamn two days before the discovery. but are these the workers who were onsite on their day off, which I assume is Saturday? So why are two workers working hauling sand on their day off/ And why pimlico? Has anyone ever had a look at the case files for the torso murders? I assume theyd be less likely to be preserved but also less desirable to be stolen

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                The interesting thing to me is Wildbore saw the parcel 3 times before it he drew attention to it. On one occasion he 'looked closely' at it with a wax vesta. As you say, the smell penetrates everywhere. The man on the bus near the obelisk story comes to mind, the guy carrying a parcel that stunk even though it was wrapped up.

                I just don't see how this parcel could not have smelled in a closed in area like it was. If it were there since August, as Bond exclaims, surely the smell would have gotten worse and worse over time.
                Thanks, Jerry.
                In Rob's article he mentions that the trunk was in a recess with a two pieces of hoarding joined together by a cross slat resting against the wall the trunk parcel was in a triangular space formed by the hoarding. Would this inhibit the smell I wonder? The way I imagine the hoarding seems like it may have also obscured the parcel in the darkness a little?

                I thought the man on the bus story turned out to be a hoax?

                Yes, the smell would have been at its peak the day it was discovered and Bond had it removed and disinfected immediately because he deemed it a danger to health. But in the same way, the smell would have been pretty powerful the day before when Wildbore noticed the parcel visually he says. So the only explanation for the lack of smell in that case would be that Wildbore was lying or that the parcel didn't smell that much until it was opened up.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                  Thanks, Jerry.
                  In Rob's article he mentions that the trunk was in a recess with a two pieces of hoarding joined together by a cross slat resting against the wall the trunk parcel was in a triangular space formed by the hoarding. Would this inhibit the smell I wonder? The way I imagine the hoarding seems like it may have also obscured the parcel in the darkness a little?

                  I thought the man on the bus story turned out to be a hoax?

                  Yes, the smell would have been at its peak the day it was discovered and Bond had it removed and disinfected immediately because he deemed it a danger to health. But in the same way, the smell would have been pretty powerful the day before when Wildbore noticed the parcel visually he says. So the only explanation for the lack of smell in that case would be that Wildbore was lying or that the parcel didn't smell that much until it was opened up.
                  It might have been a hoax Debs, I can't remember. The point I was making with that story was that even a wrapped up parcel emitted a horrible odor.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                    That is an excellent question, Debra - it sounds very weird indeed. Then again, weird seems to be par for the course throughout...

                    There are, I believe, examples of varying degrees of decay with some of the torsos, are there not? Some parts seemed to have been in the river for much longer than others or something like that? Perhaps pointing to how the killer may have been able to conserve parts? Correct me if I am fabling here, but I seem to remember that this point has been made somewhere (Dear God, please don´t let it be Trow again...)
                    Fisherman, the varying rates of decay are mentioned with the Whitehall case, the arm had decayed in water, the trunk in air and the leg with foot had decayed at a rate consistent with being buried. I don't recall it with any torso cases where body parts were found at the same time like the leg and trunk in the vault. The leg was also found two weeks after the trunk in the same vault so had a further two weeks worth of decay that was still less severe than the trunk
                    The killer would have had to replicate the conditions of the vault discoveries in his storage arrangements-that is, kept the leg buried and the trunk in open air and then took them to the vault and placed the torso in air against the wall and buried the leg.

                    One explanation that works well is that the trunk and leg were placed there at the same time and the leg buried accidentally when the drainage trenches were dug, without it being spotted. The drainage was dug six weeks previously (from the finding of the leg) as Bond and Habbert stated
                    .
                    Then there's the question of whether or not Bond and Hebbert dated the death back to late August simply because of the arm found at Pimlico and them believing it was from the same body.
                    Last edited by Debra A; 11-06-2017, 10:46 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                      Thanks, Jerry.
                      In Rob's article he mentions that the trunk was in a recess with a two pieces of hoarding joined together by a cross slat resting against the wall the trunk parcel was in a triangular space formed by the hoarding. Would this inhibit the smell I wonder? The way I imagine the hoarding seems like it may have also obscured the parcel in the darkness a little?

                      I thought the man on the bus story turned out to be a hoax?

                      Yes, the smell would have been at its peak the day it was discovered and Bond had it removed and disinfected immediately because he deemed it a danger to health. But in the same way, the smell would have been pretty powerful the day before when Wildbore noticed the parcel visually he says. So the only explanation for the lack of smell in that case would be that Wildbore was lying or that the parcel didn't smell that much until it was opened up.
                      I'd opt for the smell being released when the parcel was opened. I would think the smell would be pretty localised when wrapped and left undisturbed in a vault with minimal airflow. I've no evidence for this, just a feeling.

                      And Jerry, the Obelisk parcel was being carried around, allowing the scent to be wafted about.

                      Comment


                      • George Bugden, the man who was told by Mr. Cheney to drag the parcel out had this to say at the inquest.

                        ...Mr. Cheney told me there was a parcel there, and I was to examine it. I looked at it, and found that the top was bare, and the rest wrapped in some old cloth, but could make nothing of it. I thought it was some old bacon at first. I took hold of the strings around it, and dragged it into the light, and cut the strings, three or four in number. On opening the old wrappers I saw that the parcel contained part of a human body....

                        So if the top was bare, it wasn't completely wrapped up, which in my mind would stink.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                          I'd opt for the smell being released when the parcel was opened. I would think the smell would be pretty localised when wrapped and left undisturbed in a vault with minimal airflow. I've no evidence for this, just a feeling.

                          And Jerry, the Obelisk parcel was being carried around, allowing the scent to be wafted about.
                          Yes, this seems more plausible to me too.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                            That's why I've always felt the condy's fluid/powder was a good explanation. And it was found one of the other body parts from a different torso case wasn't it? How did the police who were investigating not go back to the worker who was seen during the weekend? The torso was also found with august 14 paper. especially with those two account Joshua just posted, I think longer side is possible
                            Hi Rocky
                            The Condy's fluid was a disinfectant I believe? Bond ordered the trunk to be disinfected immediately because he felt it a health hazard. I wonder if there had been some confusion as to who did the discinfecting? Who first mentioned the Condy's fluid I wonder? Was it the press?
                            Last edited by Debra A; 11-06-2017, 11:04 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                              George Bugden, the man who was told by Mr. Cheney to drag the parcel out had this to say at the inquest.

                              ...Mr. Cheney told me there was a parcel there, and I was to examine it. I looked at it, and found that the top was bare, and the rest wrapped in some old cloth, but could make nothing of it. I thought it was some old bacon at first. I took hold of the strings around it, and dragged it into the light, and cut the strings, three or four in number. On opening the old wrappers I saw that the parcel contained part of a human body....

                              So if the top was bare, it wasn't completely wrapped up, which in my mind would stink.
                              What about the hoarding thingy arrangement I mentioned? Do you think that may have masked the smell or visibility a little? How do you envisage the parcel placement in that scenario? I'm not sure if I am visualising it correctly.

                              "The ground was very rough and building materials were scattered about
                              the place. In one spot there was a deep recess which, even when the sun was shining brightly, was in complete darkness.
                              This led by a dangerous way to another recess. In one corner of this farthest dark recess stood a piece of hoarding, two
                              pieces of board held together by a cross piece, as if it had once formed part of a builder’s hoarding round the building.
                              This stood crossways against the wall, leaving a triangular space. It was within this space that the parcel containing the
                              body was found. "

                              Ripperologist 133
                              In the Ripper’s Shadow:
                              The Whitehall Mystery
                              By ROBERT CLACK

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                                I'd opt for the smell being released when the parcel was opened. I would think the smell would be pretty localised when wrapped and left undisturbed in a vault with minimal airflow. I've no evidence for this, just a feeling.

                                And Jerry, the Obelisk parcel was being carried around, allowing the scent to be wafted about.
                                Thanks Joshua,

                                I'm sure the smell was worse once it was opened but I find it hard to believe it had no odor at all that was noticeable.

                                Then we have to account for about six witnesses that were in the vault and did not see the parcel before that Tuesday. These witnesses range from Clerk of the Works to Foremen to laborers. One man was in that exact corner measuring and did not see the parcel. Most of these witnesses say if it had been there, they would have seen it. One stated emphatically, it was not there.

                                Debs, you mentioned the hoarding the parcel may have been hidden behind or under. Wildbore stated that the parcel was in the open and had not moved since the day before when he saw it. Not saying it wasn't under the hoarding but according to Wildbore, it was in the open and visible.

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