Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

I am not convinced the Whitehall torso was covered in any fluid. Like Bond and Hebbert, I think it most likely that the torso and the leg were dumped in the vault at the same time but the leg became buried when the drainage was dug and the earth from the drain piled up on top of it without it being noticed. Perhaps that's why the two different states of decay in the torso and the leg were observed, one decayed above ground and one less so because it was buried.
The workmen didn't noticed any smell at any point in time, not even on the day we know the torso was there and they were at work.

I´ve been working in the meat industry, and I know from experience that if you leave some pork cutlets for a few days in a plastic tray, once you lift the tray above, you will be absolutely knocked out by the odour. It is a distinctly unpleasant exerience and one that had me reeling backwards and looking for a suitable place to vomit. If that torso was not treated somehow and if it had been left to rot on the vault for a long time, there is no way it would have gone unnoticed smellwise.
We can compare to Pennett finding the Pinchin Street torso using his nose - and that corpse was about three days old only.

[Sam Flynn]

if it had been left to rot on the vault for a long time, there is no way it would have gone unnoticed smellwise

Do we know how often the workers went down there?

[Fisherman]

And how weird is it that the killer brought a leg with himself when he placed the torso in the vault!?

On would have thought that if he was making a point, that point would be sufficiently clearly made by the torso.

So why on earth bring the leg?

[Joshua Rogan]

We can compare to Pennett finding the Pinchin Street torso using his nose - and that corpse was about three days old only.

I thought he said he saw it as he crossed the street toward the arch...

"As I was crossing I saw, in the arch, something that appeared to be a bundle."

[Fisherman]

Do we know how often the workers went down there?

Bond was of the meaning that the torso had been in place for a couple of weeks, and the workes stored their tools down there every weekend. The smell, however, would not have restricted itself to the particular vault where the torso was put, I´d say. It should have been stinking to high heaven throughout the vaults.

Now Joshua has posted an article where it was said that the smell was awful. But why did they not search for the source earlier? That´s what I have problems understanding. My best guess is that it did simply not stink badly before the days leading up to it´s finding, meaning that it may not have been there - or it had been treated so as not to stink.

[Fisherman]

I thought he said he saw it as he crossed the street toward the arch...

"As I was crossing I saw, in the arch, something that appeared to be a bundle."

He was already guided by his nose at that stage, methinks. I´ll have a look for it!

[jerryd]

After re-reading the inquest in the London Standard, October 9, 1888 it looks like Wildbore drew his mate's attention to the parcel on Tuesday morning. Not Monday like I mentioned in my earlier post.

Wildbore saw what appeared to be an old coat in the corner of the recess on Monday morning at 6 a.m. when he went to pick up his tools. He went again into the vault that same evening (Monday) at 5:30 with his tools and saw the parcel again and said nothing to anyone. The next morning (Tuesday) he again saw the parcel and pointed it out to a mate and struck a wax vesta. He said he and the mate looked closely at it, but neither formed an opinion what it was. That afternoon at about 2:30 he drew Mr. Brown's (assistant foreman) attention to the parcel. Mr. Brown notified Mr. Cheney and it was then a labourer was sent to retrieve the parcel.

Sam, it appears the last time anyone was in the vault was on Saturday. Except for Wildbore, who was in there the day before the discovery. As far back as the 22nd of August witnesses were in the vault measuring, placing tools, etc and not one can say they saw a parcel in the vault. In fact, they swore up and down it was not there. Many of the witnesses were in that very corner with lamps and still never saw it prior to Tuesday when it was discovered.

[Fisherman]

I thought he said he saw it as he crossed the street toward the arch...

"As I was crossing I saw, in the arch, something that appeared to be a bundle."

This is from the Guardian of the 11 of September, referring to Pennett:

"He is positive that the odour was so great that the body could not have been brought from a great distance, as someone would most likely have noticed the odour and stopped the bearer."

There are other sources saying that the smell was what drew him to the vault, I believe, so I´ll look some more. At any rate, I think the point about the smell has been made!

[Joshua Rogan]

Bond was of the meaning that the torso had been in place for a couple of weeks, and the workes stored their tools down there every weekend. The smell, however, would not have restricted itself to the particular vault where the torso was put, I´d say. It should have been stinking to high heaven throughout the vaults.

Now Joshua has posted an article where it was said that the smell was awful. But why did they not search for the source earlier? That´s what I have problems understanding. My best guess is that it did simply not stink badly before the days leading up to it´s finding, meaning that it may not have been there - or it had been treated so as not to stink.

Although several workmen at the inquest thought they must have seen the torso if it was there before the Monday, Bond wasn't the only one who thought it had been in place for several weeks. In the Dundee Courier article again, there are more interviews wirh unnamed workmen;

"A man employed upon the works, who was one of the first to see the remains, made the following statement to a representative of the press:- I went down into one of the cellars, which is about 20 feet by 15 feet in size, to look round, when I saw a parcel lying in a corner as though it had been thrown there carelessly. I might say that the cellar is really a part of the half finished basement of what are to be the new Police Offices. The parcel was a paper one which could easily be carried under the arm. When the parcel was opened I saw that it contained the trunk of a woman wrapped up in a coarse cloth. In cutting off the legs a portion of the abdomen had been cut away. The head and arms were also cut off close to the trunk. The police have been digging up rubbish, and any place where it seems likely any more remains could be hidden, but I don’t think they have found anything more. The contents of the parcel were very much decomposed, and looked to me as though they had been in the place where they were found for three weeks or a month. My opinion is that the person, putting the parcel where it was found, must have got over the hoarding in Cannon Row and then thrown the bundle down.

Another workman says that the parcel was discovered by a man whom he only knows by the name of “George,” who went down to get some timber. In his opinion the parcel had been there for quite three weeks, as it was terribly decomposed"

[Debra A]

After re-reading the inquest in the London Standard, October 9, 1888 it looks like Wildbore drew his mate's attention to the parcel on Tuesday morning. Not Monday like I mentioned in my earlier post.

Wildbore saw what appeared to be an old coat in the corner of the recess on Monday morning at 6 a.m. when he went to pick up his tools. He went again into the vault that same evening (Monday) at 5:30 with his tools and saw the parcel again and said nothing to anyone. The next morning (Tuesday) he again saw the parcel and pointed it out to a mate and struck a wax vesta. He said he and the mate looked closely at it, but neither formed an opinion what it was. That afternoon at about 2:30 he drew Mr. Brown's (assistant foreman) attention to the parcel. Mr. Brown notified Mr. Cheney and it was then a labourer was sent to retrieve the parcel.

Sam, it appears the last time anyone was in the vault was on Saturday. Except for Wildbore, who was in there the day before the discovery. As far back as the 22nd of August witnesses were in the vault measuring, placing tools, etc and not one can say they saw a parcel in the vault. In fact, they swore up and down it was not there. Many of the witnesses were in that very corner with lamps and still never saw it prior to Tuesday when it was discovered.

Hi Jerry,
Yes, that's how I understood it from what Rob wrote in his article that I mentioned. Wildbore noticed the parcel on Monday but said nothing, so the parcel was definitely there on Monday, the day before its dicovery on Tuesday, but none of the workmen noticed a smell at that point. The smell was commented on after the parcel was opened.

[Debra A]

And why was the leg less decayed than the badly decomposed torso? Hebbert and Bond said it was because it was buried and the torso decayed in air. If a killer stored the torso and leg elsewhere and brought them to the vault the day before dicovery, how were they stored to account for the difference in decay rates? Are people suggesting the torso was stored in air and the leg buried at some other place previously?

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
Yes, that's how I understood it from what Rob wrote in his article that I mentioned. Wildbore noticed the parcel on Monday but said nothing, so the parcel was definitely there on Monday, the day before its dicovery on Tuesday, but none of the workmen noticed a smell at that point. The smell was commented on after the parcel was opened.

Debs,

Dr. Bond mentions a black staining on the wall. Doesn't that mean fluids seeped through the parcel onto the wall? Wouldn't that smell? Both Wildbore and Brown said it appeared to be a ham wrapped up in an old coat. Part of the body must have been visible through the wrapping which is why I am baffled by the lack of smell.

My point about Wildbore being the only man in the vault on Monday is what if the parcel really never was there until sometime after Saturday? He would be the only one that would have noticed the smell. According to the article posted by Joshua he did notice the smell, but he never mentions that at the inquest.

[Debra A]

Debs,

Dr. Bond mentions a black staining on the wall. Doesn't that mean fluids seeped through the parcel onto the wall? Wouldn't that smell? Both Wildbore and Brown said it appeared to be a ham wrapped up in an old coat. Part of the body must have been visible through the wrapping which is why I am baffled by the lack of smell.

My point about Wildbore being the only man in the vault on Monday is what if the parcel really never was there until sometime after Saturday? He would be the only one that would have noticed the smell. According to the article posted by Joshua he did notice the smell, but he never mentions that at the inquest.

Jerry
Yes, if Wildbore was somehow involved then him saying the parcel was there the day before would obviously be a cover story but then again, if the killer and dumper was someone who didn't work in the vault we'd have to explain why Wildbore didn't noticed the smell on Monday, if the stench was overwhelming as said. I've smelt a decaying human body. The stench burns your nostrils it's so bad it penetrates everywhere and lingers.
So in your scenario with Wildbore having something to do with it, it works but if Wildbore did innocently notice the parcel the day before but didn't notice the smell, then the conclusion would be that the smell was worse after the opening of the parcel?

[Fisherman]

Although several workmen at the inquest thought they must have seen the torso if it was there before the Monday, Bond wasn't the only one who thought it had been in place for several weeks. In the Dundee Courier article again, there are more interviews wirh unnamed workmen;

"A man employed upon the works, who was one of the first to see the remains, made the following statement to a representative of the press:- I went down into one of the cellars, which is about 20 feet by 15 feet in size, to look round, when I saw a parcel lying in a corner as though it had been thrown there carelessly. I might say that the cellar is really a part of the half finished basement of what are to be the new Police Offices. The parcel was a paper one which could easily be carried under the arm. When the parcel was opened I saw that it contained the trunk of a woman wrapped up in a coarse cloth. In cutting off the legs a portion of the abdomen had been cut away. The head and arms were also cut off close to the trunk. The police have been digging up rubbish, and any place where it seems likely any more remains could be hidden, but I don’t think they have found anything more. The contents of the parcel were very much decomposed, and looked to me as though they had been in the place where they were found for three weeks or a month. My opinion is that the person, putting the parcel where it was found, must have got over the hoarding in Cannon Row and then thrown the bundle down.

Another workman says that the parcel was discovered by a man whom he only knows by the name of “George,” who went down to get some timber. In his opinion the parcel had been there for quite three weeks, as it was terribly decomposed"

Thanks for that, Joshua! Don´t you think it is fair to say that all that could have been concluded was that the body had decomposed in the vaults for weeks - or some place else?

[Pcdunn]

I know Ive often said that the only difference in MO between the ripper and torsoman is the dismemberment. And that in terms of ensnarement that they most likely used a similar MO (ruse technique) in getting the victims to where they wanted them to make the kill.

However, heres a possible problem I see with them being the same man when it comes to MO in how he dispatched (killed) the victim.

Background on my beliefs:

I see Millwood and Tabram as early, more than likely ripper victims. However, these were poor attempts at rendering the victims helpless and killing quickly, which might to be expected if these were his first kills.

however, since the torso murders predate the ripper murders, one would think torsoman would have learned how to kill his victims quickly, quietly and efficiently (eventhough it was probably in his own bolt hole).

Of course, this is assuming millwood and tabram were ripper victims and for sake of my query lets assume they were.

Full disclosure-Ive thought millwood and tabram were ripper victims(and still do) way before I thought torsoman and the ripper were probably the same man, so I'm not just going to throw them out now that I lean to a torsoripper.

so whats going on here? perhaps the torsoman had some way of dispatching his victims in his murder house that wasn't available on the streets with the ripper? Like getting them drunk and or spiking a drink that made them pass out? but hes still got to kill them, so I'm assuming hes going to cut there throats and or strangle them to death once he has them incapacitated?

so why didn't he at least employ the cut throat or strangle method with millwood and tabram? (again we are assuming they are torso ripper victims).

Its a growing issue for me in the torsoripper idea.

Maybe the Torsoman was Jack the Ripper's father or mentor? Could explain the Torsos killings seeming more accomplished, while Jack seems to have a learning curve in his series.

I'm only half-joking, as I have seen a true crime doc about at least one father and son set of criminals, who I believe were also serial killers.