Same motive = same killer

[Debra A]

I found reference to a drain that was dug out with the trenches. Dirt and debri were piled up by the drain and near there they found the leg.

No, it wasn't the drain being dug I was posting about, Jerry. I mentioned the drain in my old podcast. I believe it is why the leg was buried because it was in place in the vault already, along with the torso and when the drainage ditch was dug the earth from the ditch was piled on top of the leg without them noticing it.

[Debra A]

In 1890 according to a news ad, it was located at 39, Turnmill Street in Clerkenwell. Lots of people used Condy's Fluid though, such as hospitals. It was also a remedy for sore throats.

It was never proven that Condy's fluid was used on the Whitehall torso. It was stated by one of the journalists to be a possibility because of the discoloration on the skin. I presume this was one of the two journalists that went into the vault with the dog. I still find it hard to believe out of the six or so witnesses that were in the vault, no one smelled anything yet when they dragged it out of the vault and opened it up, it stunk to high heaven.

The strange thing is though, Jerry, we know the torso was there for at least one day while the workmen were working and the day before it was discovered so still no one complained of the smell even then.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: Well, we know that he didn't examine any of the bodies, which your own research confirmed. But that didn't stop you resisting my pragmatic suggestion that his being based in Birmingham made it unlikely that he had seen them.

It goes without saying that it becomes more unlikely the further away you live, and nobody ever " resisted" that. I said that he MAY nevertheless have seen them, since people DO travel and since he WAS a specialist.
Do you really, REALLY, want to discuss that again? I know I don´t!

If I was right about that, then I'd wager that my suggestion that he based his opinions on what he read in the media is correct as well. I'd also wager that his assertion that one could tell apart the techniques of a London/Dublin/Edinburgh butcher was based on little more than conjecture, too.

(PS: I bought Tait's biography recently. I haven't read it yet, but a quick skim through didn't unearth any references to the Ripper or torso murders. I'll let y'all know if that changes, once I've had a chance to read it properly.)

There will be not a word from me on Tait until further notice. The thread became an exercise in idiocy, and I have no wish to have more of it. That I DO resist.

[Fisherman]

You evidently took it personally, but I didn't mean it personally - fact - so what's the problem?

The problem is the mocking tone. I thought I was pretty clear on that?

If we are to have some sort of useful exchange, I advice you to abstain from that kind of thing in the future. If you think that makes me supersensitive, so be it. Then treat me accordingly, simple as that.

[Fisherman]

The strange thing is though, Jerry, we know the torso was there for at least one day while the workmen were working and the day before it was discovered so still no one complained of the smell even then.

Would Condy´s fluid have taken away the smell? If so, then it makes very little sense to suggest that the killer did not want the torso to smell down in the vault. It WOULD be found, and it looks as if the killer WANTED it to be found.

Another possibility is that the killer hung on to the torso as long as possible, conserving it with the fluid and only giving it up when decomposition became too obvious.

I am aware that it is not a proven thing that the torso was covered in the stuff.

[Abby Normal]

I know Ive often said that the only difference in MO between the ripper and torsoman is the dismemberment. And that in terms of ensnarement that they most likely used a similar MO (ruse technique) in getting the victims to where they wanted them to make the kill.

However, heres a possible problem I see with them being the same man when it comes to MO in how he dispatched (killed) the victim.

Background on my beliefs:

I see Millwood and Tabram as early, more than likely ripper victims. However, these were poor attempts at rendering the victims helpless and killing quickly, which might to be expected if these were his first kills.

however, since the torso murders predate the ripper murders, one would think torsoman would have learned how to kill his victims quickly, quietly and efficiently (eventhough it was probably in his own bolt hole).

Of course, this is assuming millwood and tabram were ripper victims and for sake of my query lets assume they were.

Full disclosure-Ive thought millwood and tabram were ripper victims(and still do) way before I thought torsoman and the ripper were probably the same man, so I'm not just going to throw them out now that I lean to a torsoripper.

so whats going on here? perhaps the torsoman had some way of dispatching his victims in his murder house that wasn't available on the streets with the ripper? Like getting them drunk and or spiking a drink that made them pass out? but hes still got to kill them, so I'm assuming hes going to cut there throats and or strangle them to death once he has them incapacitated?

so why didn't he at least employ the cut throat or strangle method with millwood and tabram? (again we are assuming they are torso ripper victims).

Its a growing issue for me in the torsoripper idea.

[Abby Normal]

The strange thing is though, Jerry, we know the torso was there for at least one day while the workmen were working and the day before it was discovered so still no one complained of the smell even then.

Hi Debs
How do we know again that it was there at least one day before discovered?

[Debra A]

Would Condy´s fluid have taken away the smell? If so, then it makes very little sense to suggest that the killer did not want the torso to smell down in the vault. It WOULD be found, and it looks as if the killer WANTED it to be found.

Another possibility is that the killer hung on to the torso as long as possible, conserving it with the fluid and only giving it up when decomposition became too obvious.

I am aware that it is not a proven thing that the torso was covered in the stuff.

I am not convinced the Whitehall torso was covered in any fluid. Like Bond and Hebbert, I think it most likely that the torso and the leg were dumped in the vault at the same time but the leg became buried when the drainage was dug and the earth from the drain piled up on top of it without it being noticed. Perhaps that's why the two different states of decay in the torso and the leg were observed, one decayed above ground and one less so because it was buried.
The workmen didn't noticed any smell at any point in time, not even on the day we know the torso was there and they were at work.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs
How do we know again that it was there at least one day before discovered?

Hi Abby
I'm going by memory here but I have the idea in my mind that the torso was parcel was noticed the day before but no one investigated at that time? I'll have a look but I may have remembered it wrongly. Even on the day of discovery the parcel wasn't discovered because it smelt bad was it?

[Debra A]

Hi Abby
I'm going by memory here but I have the idea in my mind that the torso was parcel was noticed the day before but no one investigated at that time? I'll have a look but I may have remembered it wrongly. Even on the day of discovery the parcel wasn't discovered because it smelt bad was it?

Found it in Rob Clack's artilce from Ripperologist 133
Wildbore first saw the parcel on the Monday but didn't report it until Tuesday and none of the other workmen apparently reported a smell during that time.

[Debra A]

I am not convinced the Whitehall torso was covered in any fluid. Like Bond and Hebbert, I think it most likely that the torso and the leg were dumped in the vault at the same time but the leg became buried when the drainage was dug and the earth from the drain piled up on top of it without it being noticed. Perhaps that's why the two different states of decay in the torso and the leg were observed, one decayed above ground and one less so because it was buried.
The workmen didn't noticed any smell at any point in time, not even on the day we know the torso was there and they were at work.

I haven't yet seen a good explanation as to why Bond and Hebbert noticed the difference in rates of decay of the torso and the leg which they said was consistent with decay in air for the torso and decay under soil for the leg. It is consistent with them being deposited in the vault at the same time and the leg getting covered with earth accidentally. What other circumstances of storage would show this in both the leg and torso. The leg would have had to have been stored differently to the torso if we assume they were both dumped a few days before discovery.

[Abby Normal]

Found it in Rob Clack's artilce from Ripperologist 133
Wildbore first saw the parcel on the Monday but didn't report it until Tuesday and none of the other workmen apparently reported a smell during that time.

Thanks Debra!

That's really odd no one noticed the smell even on the day it was discovered ie, it wasn't the smell that led them to discover and they didn't even notice the smell until they saw what it was?

trying to figure that one out, but this wildbore fellow has raised my suspicion-perhaps he didn't really notice anything the day before (lied)?? odd.

the only other thing is that there were other over powering smells in the vault-was there sewar/sewage near by? or perhaps there was an air current through the vault that carried the bad smell away from workers? I don't know,just thinking out loud.

[jerryd]

The strange thing is though, Jerry, we know the torso was there for at least one day while the workmen were working and the day before it was discovered so still no one complained of the smell even then.

Hi Debs,

The only one of the witnesses that claimed he was in the vault on Monday was Wildbore. He pointed it out to a mate, but neither said anything and went away. So two people were in the vault apparently on Monday is all.

[Joshua Rogan]

That's really odd no one noticed the smell even on the day it was discovered ie, it wasn't the smell that led them to discover and they didn't even notice the smell until they saw what it was?

A strange smell was apparently noticed, but not investigated immediately. I suspect it was much less noticable while the torso sat tightly wrapped in the vault. However, once opened and the decay exposed to air, it was overwhelming;

Dundee Courier 3rd Oct '89
"Another workman, who has a thorough knowledge of the facts connected with the finding of the ghastly remains, has made the following statement:- As one of our carpenters was putting away his tools at about five o’clock last (Monday) night in one of the vaults which are to form the foundation of the main building of the new offices which are to accommodate the police, he saw what seemed to be a heap of paper. As it is very dark in this particular spot, even during the day, the matter somehow did not appear to strike him as curious or out of the way, his passing thoughts being that it was merely a bundle of canvas which was being used on the works. He consequently mentioned the matter to no one, and having left his tools, came away and went home, thinking no more about the mysterious parcel which was to reveal another dreadful crime, probably perpetrated within a hundred yards of King Street Police Station, about two or three hundred yards from the present offices of the Criminal Investigation Department, and within fifty yards of the Houses of Parliament. Yesterday morning when be went to fetch his tools he became aware of a very peculiar smell proceeding from the dark corner, but at the time made no attempts to ascertain the cause. The matter, how-ever, had taken possession of his mind, and later on in the day he mentioned the circumstance to one or two of his fellow workmen. They at once decided to tell the foreman. This was done, and the foreman, accompanied by some of the men, proceeded to the spot. One of the labourers was called to shift the parcel. It was then opened, and the onlookers were horrified to find that it contained a human body. The legs, arms, and head were missing, and the body presented a most sickening spectacle. It had evidently been dead for many days, as decomposition was far advanced. I never saw such a dreadful sight in my life; and the smell was dreadful. After we had got over the first surprise and nausea, we sent for the police, and a doctor was also sent for. We could see that the body was that of a full-grown woman, and when the doctor came he said the same thing. Almost immediately after that Dr Bond, of the Middlesex Hospital, came and saw the body."

[Abby Normal]

A strange smell was apparently noticed, but not investigated immediately. I suspect it was much less noticable while the torso sat tightly wrapped in the vault. However, once opened and the decay exposed to air, it was overwhelming;

Dundee Courier 3rd Oct '89
"Another workman, who has a thorough knowledge of the facts connected with the finding of the ghastly remains, has made the following statement:- As one of our carpenters was putting away his tools at about five o’clock last (Monday) night in one of the vaults which are to form the foundation of the main building of the new offices which are to accommodate the police, he saw what seemed to be a heap of paper. As it is very dark in this particular spot, even during the day, the matter somehow did not appear to strike him as curious or out of the way, his passing thoughts being that it was merely a bundle of canvas which was being used on the works. He consequently mentioned the matter to no one, and having left his tools, came away and went home, thinking no more about the mysterious parcel which was to reveal another dreadful crime, probably perpetrated within a hundred yards of King Street Police Station, about two or three hundred yards from the present offices of the Criminal Investigation Department, and within fifty yards of the Houses of Parliament. Yesterday morning when be went to fetch his tools he became aware of a very peculiar smell proceeding from the dark corner, but at the time made no attempts to ascertain the cause. The matter, how-ever, had taken possession of his mind, and later on in the day he mentioned the circumstance to one or two of his fellow workmen. They at once decided to tell the foreman. This was done, and the foreman, accompanied by some of the men, proceeded to the spot. One of the labourers was called to shift the parcel. It was then opened, and the onlookers were horrified to find that it contained a human body. The legs, arms, and head were missing, and the body presented a most sickening spectacle. It had evidently been dead for many days, as decomposition was far advanced. I never saw such a dreadful sight in my life; and the smell was dreadful. After we had got over the first surprise and nausea, we sent for the police, and a doctor was also sent for. We could see that the body was that of a full-grown woman, and when the doctor came he said the same thing. Almost immediately after that Dr Bond, of the Middlesex Hospital, came and saw the body."

thanks JR!