Same motive = same killer

[Sam Flynn]

because I'm not sure what your getting at here. obviously the question means people who were caught, or if not caught, its clear they were separate series.

please explain.

This is a thought-experiment, Abby. We only know that about Bonin, Kraft and Kearney because they were caught. If they hadn't, there'd be a school of thought arguing that the 1970s California Freeway Murders were probably perpetrated by one and the same person, and I might be one of those arguing against that point of view. The "single-killer" school might demand "give me just one example where more than one freeway killer was on the loose in the same area at the same time". If no such examples were found, it wouldn't mean that the "single-killer" theory was right.

There has to be a precedent for everything.

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry
yes.yes, YES! Thank you! (now were getting some where)Ive heard about Johnny Gill, and ive always had him in the back of my mind as a possible victim of the torsoripper, as he was both dismemebered and clearly eviscerated, but as you say being away from London and being a child (and a boy) I kind of lean on ruling him out as being part of any of the ripper, or torso murders.

I don't know about water house, can you please explain alittle more and why you think turner was also Johnny gills murderer? was he suspected?

Abby or Frau Blucher if you will,

Rather than rehash and draw this thread out, here is a link to a recent discussion regarding Gill, Waterhouse and Turner all in one thread.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27680&highlight=johnny+gill

Dr. Phillips was called to Bradford and stated the murder of Johnny Gill was not connected to the Ripper crimes.

[Fisherman]

Abby or Frau Blucher if you will,

Rather than rehash and draw this thread out, here is a link to a recent discussion regarding Gill, Waterhouse and Turner all in one thread.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27680&highlight=johnny+gill

Dr. Phillips was called to Bradford and stated the murder of Johnny Gill was not connected to the Ripper crimes.

With respect, Jerry, even today Bradford is a four-hour car trip from London, being situated more than 300 kilometres away. But as such, it is remarkable enough to have two eviscerators in the same country at the same time!

And it needs saying that it is only logical that there was speculation about the Ripper having killed John Gill, in spite of this being a young boy ( VERY untypical), in spite of them 300 kilometres, in spite of how the body was hidden and so on - it WAS an evisceration murder and so the possibility of a shared identity was always going to be in the cards.

Back to coffee and crosswords now...

[Abby Normal]

Abby or Frau Blucher if you will,

Rather than rehash and draw this thread out, here is a link to a recent discussion regarding Gill, Waterhouse and Turner all in one thread.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27680&highlight=johnny+gill

Dr. Phillips was called to Bradford and stated the murder of Johnny Gill was not connected to the Ripper crimes.

Frau Blucher-LOL. *horses neigh*

thanks Jer.

Ill take a look at the link you posted when ive got more time.

on the face of it, if waterhouse and gill were murdered by the same man and she was also, eviscerated, then I would say close but no cigar to the original question, because they still weren't in the same area as torso/ripper.

thanks for sharing the link-I'm looking forward to reading it.

[Sam Flynn]

With respect, Jerry, even today Bradford is a four-hour car trip from London, being situated more than 300 kilometres away. But as such, it is remarkable enough to have two eviscerators in the same country at the same time!

Even worse, two eviscerators and at least one torso chopper-upper. The Late Victorian Period was a violent time indeed.

[Abby Normal]

This is a thought-experiment, Abby. We only know that about Bonin, Kraft and Kearney because they were caught. If they hadn't, there'd be a school of thought arguing that the 1970s California Freeway Murders were probably perpetrated by one and the same person, and I might be one of those arguing against that point of view. The "single-killer" school might demand "give me just one example where more than one freeway killer was on the loose in the same area at the same time". If no such examples were found, it wouldn't mean that the "single-killer" theory was right.

There has to be a precedent for everything.

your giving me a head ache Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

your giving me a head ache Sam.

The point is that having three "freeway-killers" at large at the same time in the same area was unprecedented until Kraft, Kearney and Bonin independently arrived on the scene. AFAIK, I don't think we've had three overlapping "freeway-killers" since, so it seems that the three of them set the precedent. There would be no point in looking for other examples of three overlapping "freeway-killers", because those three monsters were the first.

By the same token, there's not much point in looking for examples of more than one "killers who eviscerated" being on the loose at the same time, if JTR and TK were the ones setting the precedent.

[Abby Normal]

The point is that having three "freeway-killers" at large at the same time in the same area was unprecedented until Kraft, Kearney and Bonin independently arrived on the scene. AFAIK, I don't think we've had three overlapping "freeway-killers" since, so it seems that the three of them set the precedent. There would be no point in looking for other examples of three overlapping "freeway-killers", because those three monsters were the first.

By the same token, there's not much point in looking for examples of more than one "killers who eviscerated" being on the loose at the same time, if JTR and TK were the ones setting the precedent.

Sam
were not asking for precedent. were asking ever at any time, so as to compare in general how rare or common.. forget it. seriously forget it.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam
were not asking for precedent. were asking ever at any time, so as to compare in general how rare or common.. forget it. seriously forget it.

No, I can't, Abby - because, as I've said, there has been no overlapping trio of independent freeway-killers since Kraft, Bonin and Kearney. The parallel would be precisely the same if JTR and TK were the only overlapping "killers who eviscerated" in history. It is entirely plausible (and I'd say extremely likely) that they were not the same person.

[Abby Normal]

Abby or Frau Blucher if you will,

Rather than rehash and draw this thread out, here is a link to a recent discussion regarding Gill, Waterhouse and Turner all in one thread.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27680&highlight=johnny+gill

Dr. Phillips was called to Bradford and stated the murder of Johnny Gill was not connected to the Ripper crimes.

Hi jerry
read through the link. Thanks again-very interesting and yes turner probably also killed the boy.

thanks!

[Fisherman]

No, I can't, Abby - because, as I've said, there has been no overlapping trio of independent freeway-killers since Kraft, Bonin and Kearney. The parallel would be precisely the same if JTR and TK were the only overlapping "killers who eviscerated" in history. It is entirely plausible (and I'd say extremely likely) that they were not the same person.

Gareth, before you make too much of a meal of the so called freeway killers, it needs to be said that they beat up, raped and strangled their victims. That means that they did what just about every serial killer with a sexual motivation does to their victims. As such, they were sort of serial killer archetypes.

The reason I keep asking for eviscerators is that they are NOT serial killer archetypes at all. They are rare creatures indeed and Bonin/Krafft/Kearney are in no way comparable in that department.

I have said before that there are examples of serial killers working in the same towns. One such example is where two serialists - I can´t remember their names, how many victims or where it was - left dead victims along the same railway tracks. It was the same thing here, though, as I remember it; beat up and strangled victims.

Eviscerators are much, much more rare than this. When we have two of those in the same town at the same time, doing a large number of similar things to their victims, then that is an incomparably much more rare thing.

When I mentioned some time ago that Lechmere had a background that resembled that of todays truck drivers - something that was ridiculously refuted, but that´s another story - I posted material showing that there have not been three freeway killers in the US - there has been heaps of them, resulting in HUNDREDS of unsolved "freeway murders", just about all of them looking very much the same: physical abuse, rape and strangulation, a gunshot or a blow on the head, whereafter the victim is dumped by the roadside.

None of these freeway killers were, to the best of my mind, eviscerators. Bonin, Krafft and Kearney - who spread their deeds all over California, by the way - is not what you need to prove the point that the Ripper and the Torso killer would not have been the same man. You need two eviscerators working the same town at the same time - just as I asked for.

After all, that is why I say we have the same man at work here. If the victims had been beaten and strangled, all of them, the case for a shared identity would of course still be a very strong one. But nowhere near as strong as it becomes when two eviscerators are involved.

Now I really do not wish to parttake in this discussion any more. It is going nowhere, and the same old, same old rules the day again.

[Sam Flynn]

The reason I keep asking for eviscerators is that they are NOT serial killer archetypes at all.

I'm not at all convinced that the Torso Killer even was an "eviscerator", as you like to put it. He was a "dismemberer" if anything. He might also have been a "they".

They are rare creatures indeed and Bonin/Krafft/Kearney are in no way comparable in that department.

If they're rare, Fish, then it stands to reason that we're not going to find many examples by defnition. To ask for examples strikes me as somewhat futile, if not a tad unfair.

[RockySullivan]

so what was the reason the pinchin torso was mutilated?

[Sam Flynn]

so what was the reason the pinchin torso was mutilated?

As the only torso dumped in the East End, perhaps a lame attempt was made to deflect suspicion on the Ripper?

[Michael W Richards]

The subtext here is that we cannot know why any eviscerations take place, unless the killer is caught, interviewed and documented. However, if ONLY eviscerations take place then we do have grounds to presume that indicates something of the nature of the beast. Its at least part of his overall goal. We do not know what the overall goal was with the Torsos other than what is at face value, as Sam pointed out we do not know how many people were involved in those crimes, and a man/men/group who is killing and dismembering might well be killing for many other reasons than to dismember. It might be a group of Necrophiliac's who later dispose of the remains in a way as to make any investigation into the crime virtually impossible.

Its well documented that many killers have sought to dispose of bodies by dismemberment and scattering of the remains.