Same motive = same killer

[Debra A]

Indeed, which makes Hebbert's use of the word a bit inapt, perhaps.

Which is why he may have also chosen to say 'slip' to indicate that it was detached. I wonder how often before skin grafting etc. became commonplace
that doctors would have had to describe pieces of flesh deliberately removed from an abdominal wall and placed elsewhere?

[Sam Flynn]

Indeed, which makes Hebbert's use of the word a bit inapt, perhaps.

On reflection, the word "flaps" was of course also used by Bond to describe the detached flesh from Kelly's abdomen.

[Fisherman]

These pieces of flesh - regardless of their shapes and sizes - must of course have been flaps for at least a few seconds or two, pieces of skin attached to the body, but flapping loose like peninsulas of flesh - until the final cut detached them.
I find it quite understandable if the doctors simply regarded them as flaps cut loose.

[Michael W Richards]

Flaps...

"Something flat and broad that is attached at one side only and hangs loosely or covers an opening: the flap of an envelope; the flap of a pocket.
Either of the two segments of a book jacket folding under the book's front and back covers. One leaf of a folding door, shutter, or the like."

I think that sort of validates Debs thinking, that an accurate use of the word Flaps would imply attachment also. In which case any surface and sub-surface "segment" that was wholly removed should not have been referred to by that word. I believe Mary had "flaps, of forehead skin covering her eyes,.... used appropriately there.

[Fisherman]

Flaps...

"Something flat and broad that is attached at one side only and hangs loosely or covers an opening: the flap of an envelope; the flap of a pocket.
Either of the two segments of a book jacket folding under the book's front and back covers. One leaf of a folding door, shutter, or the like."

I think that sort of validates Debs thinking, that an accurate use of the word Flaps would imply attachment also. In which case any surface and sub-surface "segment" that was wholly removed should not have been referred to by that word.

I find it is easy enough to understand. If we were to adjust to your suggestion, we would be able to construct sentences like "Would you please cut the flap off and hand me the slip?", and it would make things a bit awkward.

There is no doubt whatsoever about what the flaps are, so I have no problems with the term whatsoever. It´s even commendable in my world, because it tells a story.

[Debra A]

In this description of muscles of the abdominal wall as 'slips of flesh' we are told they come in various shapes and sizes:

'Common sense on the mechanical pathology and treatment of chronic diseases of the male and female systems'
by Banning, Edmund P., (Prior), b. 1810

Publication date 1852

[Debra A]

Flaps...

"Something flat and broad that is attached at one side only and hangs loosely or covers an opening: the flap of an envelope; the flap of a pocket.
Either of the two segments of a book jacket folding under the book's front and back covers. One leaf of a folding door, shutter, or the like."

I think that sort of validates Debs thinking, that an accurate use of the word Flaps would imply attachment also. In which case any surface and sub-surface "segment" that was wholly removed should not have been referred to by that word. I believe Mary had "flaps, of forehead skin covering her eyes,.... used appropriately there.

Yes. I'm not sure they had much choice than to use 'flap' as a description, Michael. Medical texts don't appear to discuss separate portions of flesh until plastic surgery and skin grafting became more popular and maybe 'slip' was Hebbert's attempt at differentiation.

[Fisherman]

In this description of muscles of the abdominal wall as 'slips of flesh' we are told they come in various shapes and sizes:

'Common sense on the mechanical pathology and treatment of chronic diseases of the male and female systems'
by Banning, Edmund P., (Prior), b. 1810

Publication date 1852

Various sizes and shapes - I guess that about covers it, Debra. Good find!

[Abby Normal]

Various sizes and shapes - I guess that about covers it, Debra. Good find!

and since this (hopefully) puts this line of debate to bed, I would like to once more return to fishes original pertinent question to see if anyone has discovered two eviscerating serial killers working in the same place at the same time.

I have a fairly good knowledge of other serial killers but I haven't found anything, so at this point, my answer would be no. Unless anyone can find anything.

I think this is a very important question as we can see how common, or rare, this is, and compare to the likelihood of if Torso man and the ripper where one in the same.

[Michael W Richards]

"Two hours west of Toronto, along Highway 401, lies the small city of London, Ontario. Known as the Forest City, the town is the birthplace of Justin Bieber, Ryan Gosling and Rachel McAdams. And between 1959 and 1984, it was home to the largest known concentration of serial killers in the world. Over the course of 25 years, the town was shaken by 29 gruesome murders. Thirteen of those murders were attributed to three killers who were eventually caught and convicted: Gerald Thomas Archer, known as the London Chamber Maid Slayer, Christian McGee, known as the Mad Slasher, and Russell Johnson, known as the Balcony Killer. Sixteen of the murders have remained unsolved, but a new book based on recovered police files offers a new theory on this bloody chapter in the town’s history, unmasking two alleged serial killers in the process.

Dennis Alsop, a detective sergeant with the Ontario provincial police, was based in the London area between 1950 and 1979. He kept all of his notes and research on the murders hidden until he died in 2012."

Multiple killers operating within the same small geographical area, within the same time period.

"Over the past two decades, the citizens of Baton Rouge and its outskirts have been hunted by no less than five serial killers. Close to 70 men and women have been taken since around 1997, when authorities started noticing unusual patterns forming in their murder statistics. In fact at least five serial killers who have operated in the area independently of each other since 1995. The others include Sean Vincent Gillis, Jefferey Guillory and Ronald Dominique (who preyed exclusively in gay men). The fifth, named “Jennings killer” after the district (just south of Baton Rouge) his victims come from, has been linked to the murders of at least eight women and remains unidentified and at large."
And again.

"According to former chief of the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit, John Douglas, there are 25 to 50 active serial killers in the United States at any given moment. Today. Right now."

People seem to feel that Douglas offers insights into these Ripper cases, maybe they should know that the above are also his insights.

There are many cases of multiple serial killers that overlapped in both time frame and location.

[Fisherman]

"Two hours west of Toronto, along Highway 401, lies the small city of London, Ontario. Known as the Forest City, the town is the birthplace of Justin Bieber, Ryan Gosling and Rachel McAdams. And between 1959 and 1984, it was home to the largest known concentration of serial killers in the world. Over the course of 25 years, the town was shaken by 29 gruesome murders. Thirteen of those murders were attributed to three killers who were eventually caught and convicted: Gerald Thomas Archer, known as the London Chamber Maid Slayer, Christian McGee, known as the Mad Slasher, and Russell Johnson, known as the Balcony Killer. Sixteen of the murders have remained unsolved, but a new book based on recovered police files offers a new theory on this bloody chapter in the town’s history, unmasking two alleged serial killers in the process.

Dennis Alsop, a detective sergeant with the Ontario provincial police, was based in the London area between 1950 and 1979. He kept all of his notes and research on the murders hidden until he died in 2012."

Multiple killers operating within the same small geographical area, within the same time period.

"Over the past two decades, the citizens of Baton Rouge and its outskirts have been hunted by no less than five serial killers. Close to 70 men and women have been taken since around 1997, when authorities started noticing unusual patterns forming in their murder statistics. In fact at least five serial killers who have operated in the area independently of each other since 1995. The others include Sean Vincent Gillis, Jefferey Guillory and Ronald Dominique (who preyed exclusively in gay men). The fifth, named “Jennings killer” after the district (just south of Baton Rouge) his victims come from, has been linked to the murders of at least eight women and remains unidentified and at large."
And again.

"According to former chief of the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit, John Douglas, there are 25 to 50 active serial killers in the United States at any given moment. Today. Right now."

People seem to feel that Douglas offers insights into these Ripper cases, maybe they should know that the above are also his insights.

There are many cases of multiple serial killers that overlapped in both time frame and location.

1959 to 1984 - were they really simultaneous? And were they eviscerators? That is the point. I know there is a Southafrican town that has bred a fair few serialists over a short period of time - but we are looking for eviscerators here, Michael. Do you know if they were?

[Sam Flynn]

And were they eviscerators? That is the point.

The point is that there is evisceration for purely practical reasons (e.g. clearing stuff out of the way to facilitate chopping the body up; minimising the risk of stink if the body is to be stored before disposal; making a body lighter and easier to transport), there may even be incidental reasons (i.e. yer man chopped this body up and all this gunk spilled out), then there is evisceration as an end in itself (e.g. specifically to remove out and/or possess one or more internal organs).

[Sam Flynn]

In this description of muscles of the abdominal wall as 'slips of flesh' we are told they come in various shapes and sizes

Thanks for that, Debs. Irritatingly, in the same book, the author refers several times to "slips of India rubber", when the context indicates clearly that he's talking about lengths/strips of rubber.

[Sam Flynn]

1959 to 1984 - were they really simultaneous?

The police thought that they had one serial "freeway killer" on their hands in California during the early 1970s, but it transpired there were three independent killers with a similar taste in young boys, and similar MOs.

[Abby Normal]

The point is that there is evisceration for purely practical reasons (e.g. clearing stuff out of the way to facilitate chopping the body up; minimising the risk of stink if the body is to be stored before disposal; making a body lighter and easier to transport), there may even be incidental reasons (i.e. yer man chopped this body up and all this gunk spilled out), then there is evisceration as an end in itself (e.g. specifically to remove out and/or possess one or more internal organs).

actually that's not the point. this was the question:

Question:

Has there ever been any example of a town or region where two eviscerating serial killers have worked simultaneously?

and since we don't really know the motivation or reason why the eviscerations took place, lets just stick to the evidence in any case if there were in fact eviscerations at all, shall we?