Apron placement as intimidation?

[Wickerman]

Not if he'd smeared excrement over them, which he almost certainly had.

The first time you mentioned this to me in an earlier discussion, the way you worded it seemed to me you believed the killer extracted the intestines, then purposefully smeared excrement over them.

I don't think that is the conventional interpretation, but I never did ask if I had misunderstood your point.

[Abby Normal]

Well. That all hangs together and explains the timing of finding of the apron and the GSG. That also squarely locates his bolthole within a short distance of Goulston street, no more than about a 20 minute walk, and perhaps closer.

Hi Eten
thanks. I forgot to add it also explains why the relatively long time from Mitre square to the GSG/apron being discovered and why the PC didn't see it the first time around.

But it looks like you picked up on it.

[Sam Flynn]

The first time you mentioned this to me in an earlier discussion, the way you worded it seemed to me you believed the killer extracted the intestines, then purposefully smeared excrement over them.

It wasn't so much a case of "purposefully smearing excrement", in the sense of him having a bit of scatalogical fun, as one of accidentally getting excrement on his hands and having to get rid of it. He cut out a length of her colon and laid it on the pavement beside the body, and it was almost inevitable that one or both of his hands would have become contaminated with faeces in the process. The other intestines, i.e. those that had been previously pulled out and laid on Eddowes' upper body, had had faecal matter smeared over them. It seems probable that the faecal matter got there due to the killer attempting to wipe off some of the gunk that he'd got on his hand(s).

[Harry D]

IMHO the GSG has everything to do with the murders, as its a direct (at least partly) reflection on the lipski event.

You suppose the killer had a beef with the Jews because one caught him assaulting Stride, even though it didn't prevent him from murdering her. How does a vague, ambiguous scribble about Jewish culpability reflect that? Was that really the best antisemitic graffito an angry, adrenalin-pumped killer could do?

However, I think you mean specifically mention something about the murders of either stride or eddowes? if so I'm not sure if any other serial killers whos messages don't mention anything specifically about the murders.

Doesn't even have to be that specific, Abby. Just something that would tie it to the murders. A vague insult about the Jews is not it.

Look at it this way, had the apron not been discarded there, would there be any reason to think this was written by the killer and not a random antisemite?

[c.d.]

I beg to differ, Abby. Perhaps you should try smearing your hands in someone else's faeces some time... then again, perhaps not

A number of threads on Casebook should make that a fairly simple task.

c.d.

[c.d.]

You suppose the killer had a beef with the Jews because one caught him assaulting Stride, even though it didn't prevent him from murdering her. How does a vague, ambiguous scribble about Jewish culpability reflect that? Was that really the best antisemitic graffito an angry, adrenalin-pumped killer could do?

Doesn't even have to be that specific, Abby. Just something that would tie it to the murders. A vague insult about the Jews is not it.

Look at it this way, had the apron not been discarded there, would there be any reason to think this was written by the killer and not a random antisemite?

Nice bit of reasoning there, Harry. I do like the way you think...uh...well...about the case anyway. Keep up the good work.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

had the apron not been discarded there, would there be any reason to think this was written by the killer and not a random antisemite?

I suspect that, had the apron been jettisoned in a different doorway in Spitalfields, some might now be arguing what the Ripper meant when he wrote "Shmuley lvs Becky 4Eva" on the wall.

[cnr]

Hi Stephen
Great to see you posting again! Best of luck with your expanded book and thanks again for sending it to me before.

I was just wondering if you've done anymore research and or found out anything more on Aussie Hutch?

as you know I'm extremely intrigued by him.

Hi Abby,

It might be a stretch to say that I'm posting again (now or previously ) but it's good to hit the 'submit reply' button once in a while – even though I can see you're doing a good job of defending the citadel.

I neither want to derail this thread or pre-empt the next edition of Ripperologist where I believe I'll have the chance to mention a few short bits and pieces about the expanded edition of my research. But to quickly answer your question, the focus will remain on the anti-Semitic dynamic of the saga and it's intersection with a certain suspect who circumstance should have deposited in the most Jewish part of Jewish Whitechapel during what was an auspicious political moment.

Essentially, the story is expounded – in terms of raw word length, we're talking about 20% comparatively, though there's more to it than just that simple benchmark.

Thanks, I'm glad the book made an impression. And happy posting.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

[cnr]

I suspect that, had the apron been jettisoned in a different doorway in Spitalfields, some might now be arguing what the Ripper meant when he wrote "Shmuley lvs Becky 4Eva" on the wall.

Hi Sam

Yours might be taken as a poignant metaphor describing 130 years of our study. And in that sense, I might tend to agree with you. Though I'm not sure how the police officials who believed the graffito to be authentic would take it (ie Moore, Anderson, Smith, Warren).

Ultimately, the graffito episode fits into an anti-Semitic sequence of events writ-large over the course of that early morning.

Happy posting.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

[Sam Flynn]

I'm not sure if there was an antisemitic sequence of events, Stephen. Whitechapel was an area of London with a high density of Jewish residents, so it was quite likely that one or more of the Whitechapel Murders would have happened in proximity to locations of apparently "semitic" relevance. Was Polly Nichols' murder a protest against horse slaughterers? Was Annie Chapman's demise designed to besmirch purveyors of cats' meat? Did the killer of Mary Kelly have a downer on chandlers or slum landlords? I very much doubt it.

[MrBarnett]

Gareth,

What if Stride's body had been found inside the open gates of the Winthrop Street yard, Kate's behind Harrison, Barber's head office in Islington and the apron dropped outside a cat's meat shop, on the wall of which was scrawled 'The Knaickers are not the men...'?

Gary

[cnr]

Whitechapel was an area of London with a high density of Jewish residents

Hi Sam,

You'll get no arguments from me on that score. It is the bedrock of my thesis. Yes, Whitechapel (Spitalfields in particular) was an ethnic “ghetto” according to writers of the period, both Jewish and gentile.

Together with that reality, the temperature on the street was highly combustible given the socio-political situation on the ground. Testament to that, the decision to expunge the graffito. As Warren put it, “I do not hesitate myself to say that if the writing had been left, there would have been an onslaught upon the Jews...”.

What Arnold and Warren averted was a situation potentially worse than that which had greeted Chapman's demise. Such was the locale, and that moment in time. I find it interesting, that the events on the night of the double-event should have followed-on from that riot, as far as the killer's next foray out.

As to the issue of geography, and the specific examples you cite, you may recall that I pay the matter quite a bit of attention - fundamental and deserving as that argument is, I agree. In particular, in chapter 9, 'Ripper Central', and the 'End of Chapter 13 notes', both of which sections are expanded in the new edition. That said, it is my humble view that the killer was wont to pull more than one lever at his disposal during the course of his campaign, geography being an important one.

For all of that, I am mindful of not derailing the thread, so please excuse the self-referencing elaboration.

Happy posting.

Stephen

https://www.timesofisrael.com/were-the-jack-the-ripper-murders-an-elaborate-anti-semitic-frameup/

[Jon Guy]

What Arnold and Warren averted was a situation potentially worse than that which had greeted Chapman's demise. Such was the locale, and that moment in time. I find it interesting, that the events on the night of the double-event should have followed-on from that riot, as far as the killer's next foray out.

Good to see someone grounded in the social climate of Spitalfields, Sept 88, and clearly knows what the Jews were getting the blame for in the previous weeks.

[Abby Normal]

You suppose the killer had a beef with the Jews because one caught him assaulting Stride, even though it didn't prevent him from murdering her. How does a vague, ambiguous scribble about Jewish culpability reflect that? Was that really the best antisemitic graffito an angry, adrenalin-pumped killer could do?



Doesn't even have to be that specific, Abby. Just something that would tie it to the murders. A vague insult about the Jews is not it.

Look at it this way, had the apron not been discarded there, would there be any reason to think this was written by the killer and not a random antisemite?

Hi Harry
that's a big if harry.lol

[Abby Normal]

Good to see someone grounded in the social climate of Spitalfields, Sept 88, and clearly knows what the Jews were getting the blame for in the previous weeks.

indeed Jon