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Originally posted by Elamarna View PostHarry,
Thanks I know that one, nice guess but not the man, Jeff accepts that himself.
Steve
My curiosity only extends to drawing a line under this whole farce. From what I've gleaned from Pierre's cryptic ramblings, it's more just fantasist mumbo-jumbo.
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Originally posted by Phil Carter View PostHello Pierre,
You will find that when read to the House of Commons his resignation letter was stated to be from 8th November.
Matthews, the Home Secretary, replied to this letter on the 10th November.
Surely..that is irrefutable evidence of the date of Sir Charles Warren's resignation as being BEFORE the death of MJK.
Now..your external source evidence please...to refute the above?
I am being open with source evidence. Instead of playing cat and mouse games...it is "put up your exact source or withdraw your claim" time.
Thank you.
Phil
So the only source showing that Warren resigned on the 8th is the letter written by Warren. There is no independent source from the 8th corroborating this, is there?
Regards, PierreLast edited by Pierre; 11-13-2016, 10:22 AM.
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Originally posted by Phil Carter View PostHello Pierre,
You will find that when read to the House of Commons his resignation letter was stated to be from 8th November.
Matthews, the Home Secretary, replied to this letter on the 10th November.
Surely..that is irrefutable evidence of the date of Sir Charles Warren's resignation as being BEFORE the death of MJK.
Now..your external source evidence please...to refute the above?
I am being open with source evidence. Instead of playing cat and mouse games...it is "put up your exact source or withdraw your claim" time.
Thank you.
PhilChristopher T. George
Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/
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Originally posted by Pierre View PostYes, Phil, this source is dated 13th November. This is four days after the murder. Matthews, in it, says he answered the letter on November 10th. That is one day after the murder.
So the only source showing that Warren resigned on the 8th is the letter written by Warren. There is no independent source from the 8th corroborating this, is there?
Regards, Pierre
Warren offers his resignation on the 8th to the Home secretary, what source would you expect there to be other than this letter?
And of course you must now assume that Matthews is in on the deception if he claims he replied on the 10th.
What data are you using to suggest that he resigned after the death of MJK?
Following somethings said in this thread, you really should give a meaningful answer to Phil. Its the polite thing to do!
Steve
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Originally posted by Elamarna View PostPierre
Warren offers his resignation on the 8th to the Home secretary, what source would you expect there to be other than this letter?
And of course you must now assume that Matthews is in on the deception if he claims he replied on the 10th.
What data are you using to suggest that he resigned after the death of MJK?
Following somethings said in this thread, you really should give a meaningful answer to Phil. Its the polite thing to do!
Steve
I do not expect sources. If there are sources, there are sources. But there is no other source. This means that you have to trust this single source. Of course, there is always a problem when you have just one source. And in this case, Matthews said he answered Warren on 10th November. He could have answered the 8th or 9th. But he didn´t, since there are no sources showing us that he did. So, Warren wrote his resignation and the date put on it was the 8th. And since no one mentioned his resignation before the 13th, and noone has stated an answer before the 10th, that is what we have.
Now, if you have other sources indicating that there would have been a reason for dating the letter with the 8th November, you must take those sources into consideration as well. If you do not, you ignore the past, you ignore the sources and choose to believe one single source and to put that single source before several other sources.
Regards, Pierre
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Pierre, this is the way it unfolded as related by Brian Schoeneman in his dissertation on this site.
Relations between Warren and Home Secretary Henry Matthews were atrocious, irregardless of the Ripper investigation. Warren's resignation had nothing to do with the murder of Mary Jane Kelly, or even to do with the Met's hunt for the murderer, as Brian states:
"Warren and Matthews continued to spar, and their bickering finally ended after Warren's piece in Murrary's Magazine. The article had nothing to do with the Ripper investigation, but it nonetheless angered Matthews, who rebuked Warren. Warren resigned, and was replaced by Monro.
"The day of Warren's resignation, the final canonical murder of Jack the Ripper's autumn of terror took place. . . ."
See http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...an-crisis.html
Best regards
ChrisChristopher T. George
Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/
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Originally posted by ChrisGeorge View PostPierre, this is the way it unfolded as related by Brian Schoeneman in his dissertation on this site.
Relations between Warren and Home Secretary Henry Matthews were atrocious, irregardless of the Ripper investigation. Warren's resignation had nothing to do with the murder of Mary Jane Kelly, or even to do with the Met's hunt for the murderer, as Brian states:
"Warren and Matthews continued to spar, and their bickering finally ended after Warren's piece in Murrary's Magazine. The article had nothing to do with the Ripper investigation, but it nonetheless angered Matthews, who rebuked Warren. Warren resigned, and was replaced by Monro.
"The day of Warren's resignation, the final canonical murder of Jack the Ripper's autumn of terror took place. . . ."
See http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...an-crisis.html
Best regards
Chris
I know this. And of course there where always problems within and between the organisations and the people working in them.
People also demanded that Warren should resign. All of this is well known.
But the 8th is a problematic date, I think, since it is the day before the murder of Kelly. So, since there are reasons for me to think that Warren dated it the 8th November when he could have dated it the 9th November, and since that source is the only source, that is my hypothesis right now.
Regards, Pierre
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Hi All,
Pierre can usually be relied on to talk bollocks, but in this instance he happens to be correct.
Sir Charles Warren resigned over the Millers Court murder, but that is not the reason which Parliament and the public were given.
In late October, Murray's Magazine published an article written by Sir Charles Warren. Such articles were not permitted.
In a letter to the Home Secretary dated 8th November, Sir Charles Warren argued that he was not aware he was constrained by an 1879 Home Office rule which forbade police officers from publishing works relating to their duties.
“I desire to say that I entirely decline to accept these instructions with regard to the Commissioner of Police, and I have again to place my resignation in the hands of Her Majesty’s Government.”
Sir Charles Warren was throwing down the gauntlet. Henry Matthews could either accept that Warren was unaware of a Home Office ruling with which he disagreed, or he could take a stand and demand his immediate resignation.
Henry Matthews made his decision, and during a debate on the evening of 8th November he told the House of Commons—
"The present Commissioner, however, informs me that he was not aware of the existence of this Rule. I have accordingly drawn his attention to it, and have requested him to comply with it in future.”
". . . and have requested him to comply with it in future.”
Sir Charles Warren may have offered his resignation on the day before the Millers Court murder, but there is not a hint of it having been accepted until the day after Millers Court.
Regards,
SimonNever believe anything until it has been officially denied.
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QUOTE=Simon Wood;400188
Hi All,
Pierre can usually be relied on to talk bollocks, but in this instance he happens to be correct.
Sir Charles Warren resigned over the Millers Court murder, but that is not the reason which Parliament and the public were given.
In late October, Murray's Magazine published an article written by Sir Charles Warren. Such articles were not permitted.
In a letter to the Home Secretary dated 8th November, Sir Charles Warren argued that he was not aware he was constrained by an 1879 Home Office rule which forbade police officers from publishing works relating to their duties.
“I desire to say that I entirely decline to accept these instructions with regard to the Commissioner of Police, and I have again to place my resignation in the hands of Her Majesty’s Government.”
Sir Charles Warren was throwing down the gauntlet. Henry Matthews could either accept that Warren was unaware of a Home Office ruling with which he disagreed, or he could take a stand and demand his immediate resignation.
Henry Matthews made his decision, and during a debate on the evening of 8th November he told the House of Commons—
"The present Commissioner, however, informs me that he was not aware of the existence of this Rule. I have accordingly drawn his attention to it, and have requested him to comply with it in future.”
". . . and have requested him to comply with it in future.”
Sir Charles Warren may have offered his resignation on the day before the Millers Court murder, but there is not a hint of it having been accepted until the day after Millers Court.
Regards,
Simon
I see.
Regards, Pierre
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Originally posted by Simon Wood View PostHi All,
Pierre can usually be relied on to talk bollocks, but in this instance he happens to be correct.
Sir Charles Warren resigned over the Millers Court murder, but that is not the reason which Parliament and the public were given.
In late October, Murray's Magazine published an article written by Sir Charles Warren. Such articles were not permitted.
In a letter to the Home Secretary dated 8th November, Sir Charles Warren argued that he was not aware he was constrained by an 1879 Home Office rule which forbade police officers from publishing works relating to their duties.
“I desire to say that I entirely decline to accept these instructions with regard to the Commissioner of Police, and I have again to place my resignation in the hands of Her Majesty’s Government.”
Sir Charles Warren was throwing down the gauntlet. Henry Matthews could either accept that Warren was unaware of a Home Office ruling with which he disagreed, or he could take a stand and demand his immediate resignation.
Henry Matthews made his decision, and during a debate on the evening of 8th November he told the House of Commons—
"The present Commissioner, however, informs me that he was not aware of the existence of this Rule. I have accordingly drawn his attention to it, and have requested him to comply with it in future.”
". . . and have requested him to comply with it in future.”
Sir Charles Warren may have offered his resignation on the day before the Millers Court murder, but there is not a hint of it having been accepted until the day after Millers Court.
Regards,
Simon
Hi Simon
That seems reasonable, offers on the 8th but not accepted until later.
If that explanation seems plausible to Pierre, we may be in some sort of agreement.
Steve
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Originally posted by Elamarna View PostHi Simon
That seems reasonable, offers on the 8th but not accepted until later.
If that explanation seems plausible to Pierre, we may be in some sort of agreement.
Steve
How come you don´t understand what Simon is writing here?
"Sir Charles Warren resigned over the Millers Court murder, but that is not the reason which Parliament and the public were given."
Pierre
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