Could the Ripper have led his victims to murder sites?

[John G]

Technically, yes.
Though if any of them were not prostitutes, or not prostituting themselves on those nights, then he is not a client, and she is not available, so he isn't leading them nor they him, anywhere.
Which in turn suggests they were killed where he met them. So, how to explain the Chapman & Kelly murders?

Well, in the case of Kelly it's possible her killer may have charmed his way into Kelly's room. Of course, it's also been argued that she may have been asleep when attacked and her killer may have spied her in this vulnerable state through the window. He could then have gained accessed to the room by putting his hand through the broken window and lifted the door latch.

[Abby Normal]

Well, in the case of Kelly it's possible her killer may have charmed his way into Kelly's room. Of course, it's also been argued that she may have been asleep when attacked and her killer may have spied her in this vulnerable state through the window. He could then have gained accessed to the room by putting his hand through the broken window and lifted the door latch.

the killer of mary Kelly either knew her and she let him in or, he knew her enough to know that Barnett was out of the picture and or the broken window trick.

the ripper knew Mary Kelly.

discuss.

[John G]

the killer of mary Kelly either knew her and she let him in or, he knew her enough to know that Barnett was out of the picture and or the broken window trick.

the ripper knew Mary Kelly.

discuss.

Yes, it's certainly possible that Kelly knew her killer, although as this was an overcrowded neighbourhood, it needn't have been more than a casual acquaintance.

As regards the broken window trick, that scenario would definitely suggest Kelly was known to her killer. And frankly, I can't somehow envisage a murderer wandering around the neighbourhood and randomly staring in at windows in the hope of finding a vulnerable victim!

Might Kelly's singing also suggest a familiarity with her killer? Kelly was also found in the middle of the bed wearing only a chemise, suggesting that she had retired to bed prior to being attacked. Is this a likely scenario if, say, she had been soliciting and was murdered by a client? As a casual prostitute-if that's what she was-is she likely to have spent the night with a client?

[Abby Normal]

Yes, it's certainly possible that Kelly knew her killer, although as this was an overcrowded neighbourhood, it needn't have been more than a casual acquaintance.

As regards the broken window trick, that scenario would definitely suggest Kelly was known to her killer. And frankly, I can't somehow envisage a murderer wandering around the neighbourhood and randomly staring in at windows in the hope of finding a vulnerable victim!

Might Kelly's singing also suggest a familiarity with her killer? Kelly was also found in the middle of the bed wearing only a chemise, suggesting that she had retired to bed prior to being attacked. Is this a likely scenario if, say, she had been soliciting and was murdered by a client? As a casual prostitute-if that's what she was-is she likely to have spent the night with a client?

agree-the singing, building a fire, sharing beer generally hanging out shows a definite familiarity with Blotchy. and No she wouldn't normally hang out with and spend the night if she was prostituting. nor bring a total stranger to her room. I think its pretty obvious she knew blotchy.

him and hutch are suspects 1 and 1a in my book. and of course she knew hutch as well.

[Pierre]

Yes, it's certainly possible that Kelly knew her killer, although as this was an overcrowded neighbourhood, it needn't have been more than a casual acquaintance.

As regards the broken window trick, that scenario would definitely suggest Kelly was known to her killer. And frankly, I can't somehow envisage a murderer wandering around the neighbourhood and randomly staring in at windows in the hope of finding a vulnerable victim!

Might Kelly's singing also suggest a familiarity with her killer? Kelly was also found in the middle of the bed wearing only a chemise, suggesting that she had retired to bed prior to being attacked. Is this a likely scenario if, say, she had been soliciting and was murdered by a client? As a casual prostitute-if that's what she was-is she likely to have spent the night with a client?

You might also consider the possibility that the victim was alone and asleep in the room when the murderer entered.

Whatever life she led, that may be an historical fact.

[John G]

You might also consider the possibility that the victim was alone and asleep in the room when the murderer entered.

Whatever life she led, that may be an historical fact.

It's certainly a possibility that Kelly was alone and asleep when attacked. However, this has not been established as an historical fact.

[John G]

agree-the singing, building a fire, sharing beer generally hanging out shows a definite familiarity with Blotchy. and No she wouldn't normally hang out with and spend the night if she was prostituting. nor bring a total stranger to her room. I think its pretty obvious she knew blotchy.

him and hutch are suspects 1 and 1a in my book. and of course she knew hutch as well.

Blotchy is obviously a viable candidate. However, the problem I have with his candidacy is that he was seen with Kelly relatively early, i.e. 11:45. Considering there is evidence that Kelly may have still been alive at 4:00am, or even later, would her killer, assuming he was JtR, be able to restrain himself for so long? That said, if Kelly was known to him maybe he didn't initially intend to commit murder, although the shear savagery of the assault must surely make this unlikely.

Moreover, some time ago on a previous thread David convinced me that Caroline Maxwell's evidence shouldn't be totally discounted.

Regarding Hutchinson, I think he lied but that his motive was to sell his story to the press. Or he may have been an attention seeker. Personally, if he was the killer, I don't think he had enough of an incentive to come forward, considering the risk he would have been taking and the fact that he hadn't been identified by a witness.

[Abby Normal]

It's certainly a possibility that Kelly was alone and asleep when attacked. However, this has not been established as an historical fact.

Well considering that Pierre thinks her killer came through a wall to get her and the police covered it up or some such nonsense, I wouldn't place too much faith in his version of what "may be historical fact". LOL!

[Abby Normal]

Blotchy is obviously a viable candidate. However, the problem I have with his candidacy is that he was seen with Kelly relatively early, i.e. 11:45. Considering there is evidence that Kelly may have still been alive at 4:00am, or even later, would her killer, assuming he was JtR, be able to restrain himself for so long? That said, if Kelly was known to him maybe he didn't initially intend to commit murder, although the shear savagery of the assault must surely make this unlikely.

Moreover, some time ago on a previous thread David convinced me that Caroline Maxwell's evidence shouldn't be totally discounted.

Regarding Hutchinson, I think he lied but that his motive was to sell his story to the press. Or he may have been an attention seeker. Personally, if he was the killer, I don't think he had enough of an incentive to come forward, considering the risk he would have been taking and the fact that he hadn't been identified by a witness.

Well that's an argument many have made against blotchy-why did he wait so long? He might not have. The last time anyone heard any sign of life from Kelly was approx. 1:00 am. Blotchy may have killed her then. Which is apprx only about an hour or so after he entered her room. Or he might have waited till around 4:00 when the screams were heard. And waited that long because he possibly was waiting for things to die down in and around the court.

I also agree with you re David. His argument has made me also consider she may have been murdered in the daylight hours. I never even considered it a possibility before.

Re hutch. Yes I actually find his coming forward to police as a tick mark against his suspecthood, but not enought discount him by a long shot. Too many red flags against him, the main one in my book being the stalking behavior.
And for all he knew he might have been IDed. By sarah lewis.

[GUT]

Well considering that Pierre thinks her killer came through a wall to get her and the police covered it up or some such nonsense, I wouldn't place too much faith in his version of what "may be historical fact". LOL!

But the Great Historian said it so it must be true, us plebs aren't worthy to sit at his feet and gather the crumbs of wisdom that fall from his plate.

And I do mean crumbs.

[Michael W Richards]

The killer of Mary Kelly was in her room by invitation, not by a break in. Its either Blotchy, who was invited in for a song and who is not recorded by any witness as seen leaving the courtyard, or someone who arrived around 3:45am and was allowed to enter.

In either circumstance one thing is clear....she knew her killer.

[c.d.]

It seems very profound and significant to say that Mary probably knew her killer and I tend to agree that that was the case. But the next question becomes a little tricky --- knew him how? It could run the gamut from lover to someone she met earlier that day.

c.d.

[kjab3112]

It is a matter of fact that the vast majority of murder victims are known to or acquainted with their killer. The problem comes in large cities with people who acquaint multiple people (e.g. bar staff, waiting staff, shop assistants, prostitutes) although the killer knows them, to the victim the killer is a passing acquaintance. My personal belief would have a trusted passing client taking each victim to their preferred locale, MJK was the unlucky victim with her own room.

[John G]

The killer of Mary Kelly was in her room by invitation, not by a break in. Its either Blotchy, who was invited in for a song and who is not recorded by any witness as seen leaving the courtyard, or someone who arrived around 3:45am and was allowed to enter.

In either circumstance one thing is clear....she knew her killer.

Not necessarily, Michael. There was obviously no break in as such, but it's possible that her assailant could have accessed the room by reaching through the broken window and lifting the latch. In fact, as I'm sure your aware, this is a system of entry that Kelly and Barnett devised on account of the missing key. Moreover, if the killer was local he may have actually observed Kelly and Barnett gaining entry by this method.

The position of the body, coupled with the fact that Kelly was dressed as if she'd retired for the night, means that we cannot completely discount the possibility that she was asleep when attacked.

[John G]

Well that's an argument many have made against blotchy-why did he wait so long? He might not have. The last time anyone heard any sign of life from Kelly was approx. 1:00 am. Blotchy may have killed her then. Which is apprx only about an hour or so after he entered her room. Or he might have waited till around 4:00 when the screams were heard. And waited that long because he possibly was waiting for things to die down in and around the court.

I also agree with you re David. His argument has made me also consider she may have been murdered in the daylight hours. I never even considered it a possibility before.

Re hutch. Yes I actually find his coming forward to police as a tick mark against his suspecthood, but not enought discount him by a long shot. Too many red flags against him, the main one in my book being the stalking behavior.
And for all he knew he might have been IDed. By sarah lewis.

I must admit that I'm not very knowledgeable about the Hutchinson theeads, which I know you've contributed too a lot: hasn't it been argued that Hutchinson may have been aware of Lewis's inquest testimony and therefore based his account on it?