Quick question on modus operandi

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

If the victim was taken completely by surprise might not the initial shock have prevented them from calling out? In such circumstances, the killer could then have rapidly slit the throat, i.e. before the victim had time to regain their composure and respond.

Hello John.

"Taken", it what way?

When you say "by surprise", might I assume you mean the victim is standing with the killer behind her?

What is this "initial shock", is there physical contact or not?

How does she get from standing, to laying down on her back?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,

If the victim was taken completely by surprise might not the initial shock have prevented them from calling out? In such circumstances, the killer could then have rapidly slit the throat, i.e. before the victim had time to regain their composure and respond.

Indeed, John !
They may not have even been aware of a knife until it was too late.

[John G]

Yes, that`s what they suggested, workable to you or not.



How do you know they didn`t scream, swear or struggle ?
The bruising suggests they had to be pushed or held own.



Lay down quietly ?
No bruising or marks ?

Hi Jon,

If the victim was taken completely by surprise might not the initial shock have prevented them from calling out? In such circumstances, the killer could then have rapidly slit the throat, i.e. before the victim had time to regain their composure and respond.

[Joshua Rogan]

We have yet to hear of a reasonable and workable means of getting a stranger to lay down quietly while you slit their throat, a means which leaves no bruises, trace of drugs or marks of any kind.

How about winding them with a sharp punch to the solar plexus, any bruising evidence then being obliterated by mutilating the abdomen?

Or simply holding a knife to their throat and whispering that he'll kill them if they don't keep quiet and do exactly as he says.

[Jon Guy]

Yes the medics did make some hardly workable suggestions, like the bruises on the clavicles being the result of holding the victim down?.

Yes, that`s what they suggested, workable to you or not.

Do they think the victim is going to make no verbal protestations, not scream or swear or struggle in any way, just subserviently lay down like a good little girl?.

How do you know they didn`t scream, swear or struggle ?
The bruising suggests they had to be pushed or held own.

We have yet to hear of a reasonable and workable means of getting a stranger to lay down quietly while you slit their throat, a means which leaves no bruises, trace of drugs or marks of any kind.

Lay down quietly ?
No bruising or marks ?

[Wickerman]

Why not just held down and throat cut, as the medics suggest in the case of Alice McKenzie. Shock prevented her calling out.

Yes the medics did make some hardly workable suggestions, like the bruises on the clavicles being the result of holding the victim down?
Do they think the victim is going to make no verbal protestations, not scream or swear or struggle in any way, just subserviently lay down like a good little girl?

We have yet to hear of a reasonable and workable means of getting a stranger to lay down quietly while you slit their throat, a means which leaves no bruises, trace of drugs or marks of any kind.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

There was a common method called "garrotting" for quick strangulation in order to incapacitate, that left no mark.

Tom Wescott quotes Arthur Harding talking about it in The Bank Holiday Murder.

All it required was for the attacker to be taller than the victim. A lot of muggers used it, but they had to be careful not to kill their target.

[lynn cates]

related

Hello Robert. Thanks for the kind words.

The doctors were not certain whether the shoulders' bruising were related to her murder. And since she was found with cachous in her hand, there must needs be an interval between those events.

Cheers.
LC

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Robert. Thanks.

Not bad. You may wish to have a go at my Liz Stride re-enactment. My YouTube channel is lcates55.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.

I watched the video of you and your lovely assistant. Some guys have all the luck. I subscribed and look forward to more. I,m currently trying to understand how the bonnet came off [Polly, Liz] and when pressure was applied over the shoulder area [Annie, Liz]. Regarding the bluish discoloration over the shoulders, Dr. Phillips states

I have watched and have seen on two occasions since.

I know Annie Chapman is the second occasion, but who is the first?

[Michael W Richards]

Strangled or suffocated, we can't be sure of which. Regardless, the victim only lost consciousness, they didn't die by that means.

No evidence around the neck of Stride, but then she wore a small scarf/handkerchief which would cushion the skin from harm - IF, she was truly a Ripper victim.
Doctors did say her scarf had been pulled tight, so maybe this was the cause of her collapsing?

As for Eddowes, she did not suffer from a blow to the head, and she apparently did not lie down willingly, or kicking and screaming, but the killer managed to subdue her somehow.
What else is there if you avoid suffocation?

Kelly had ecchymosis around the neck but her throat was so badly slashed any evidence of strangulation/suffocation was obliterated.

The knot on Strides neckerchief was tightly twisted and frayed along the same line as the initial cut took...so...she was almost certainly being choked while being cut, and likely falling at the time.

[Jon Guy]

As for Eddowes, she did not suffer from a blow to the head, and she apparently did not lie down willingly, or kicking and screaming, but the killer managed to subdue her somehow.
What else is there if you avoid suffocation?

Why not just held down and throat cut, as the medics suggest in the case of Alice McKenzie. Shock prevented her calling out.

[lynn cates]

Liz Stride re-enactment

Hello Robert. Thanks.

Not bad. You may wish to have a go at my Liz Stride re-enactment. My YouTube channel is lcates55.

Cheers.
LC

[Scott Nelson]

As one can see, there are no quick answers.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Syrius. Thanks for the kind words. The pleasure was all mine.

Much can be learned from forensics--especially in the Stride case.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.

I'm interested in how you read the SoC for Elizabeth Stride. You,ve established that only one side of her dress was wet and muddy (unless i read it wrong). So is it supportable to say that she wasn,t lying flat on her back? As in, no mud spread across the back.of her dress or head. What i,m getting at is 3 of the 4 street murders are found flat on their back, which was necessary for cutting the abdomen. It gives the impression that Elizabeth was lowered or laid on her side before her throat was cut and, if an interruption did occur, it happened before Jack the Ripper was able to.roll her on her back and lift her skirt.

[Karl]

Could one really, by applying pressure to the carotid arteries of the neck, prevent a victim from screaming bloody murder before she passed out?

No, but by applying pressure to the windpipe, absolutely. I don't think anyone has suggested a blood choke.