Ripper the Mama's Boy?

[Aldebaran]

The strangest part of this, for me--when it comes to serial murderers, who like to kill women--is that, even while committing these atrocities, they can acquire girlfriends [whom they don't murder]. fiancees and even wives. Even while obviously harboring a hatred of women, some members of the sex must appeal to them! One might say--well, they killed the hookers because they looked down on them, dehumanized them in their minds--but not all serial killers have gone after prostitutes. Ted Bundy, for instance, had many college girls as his victims. However, while Bundy was attending the colleges where he sought his prey, he could have concentrated on other women if he chose. When I read that his mother prided herself on having been an excellent student in high school, got nearly all A's, Bundy choosing the college girls and little school girls began to make sense. Just the very idea that there are men like this among us is horrifying.

Montague Druitt was quite a suspect as being the Ripper. Most people here know who he was. About the time his mother was confined to an asylum, the Ripper rampage began, although I do not know the precise date of her confinement. Druitt also lost his teaching job [he was also a barrister] for some unspecified infraction around the same time, which could have upset him quite a bit. Druitt was a dark gentleman, could have passed for "foreign appearing". What bothers me is the idea of Montague committing suicide. Serial killers are tremendously selfish people. There is nothing more selfish than murdering another human being for ones own satisfaction. Self-love and selfishness go together and suicide does not seem to be something such a person would resort to. On the other hand, Druitt left a note which said that he did not want to end up like his mother. He must have felt he was mad or going down that path. Insane asylums of the 19th Century were probably not the places anyone wanted for a permanent address. And still...if Druitt was JTR, he knew he was a good candidate for the hangman's noose, too, if he was found out. If he kept doing what he did, his chances of being apprehended would likely increase and he didn't seem to be able to stop. The gallows or the Thames? I don't know... They all had the option of suicide, these serial killers--and which of them took their own lives? And I doubt any of them worried about going or being crazy.

[GUT]

The strangest part of this, for me--when it comes to serial murderers, who like to kill women--is that, even while committing these atrocities, they can acquire girlfriends [whom they don't murder]. fiancees and even wives. Even while obviously harboring a hatred of women, some members of the sex must appeal to them! One might say--well, they killed the hookers because they looked down on them, dehumanized them in their minds--but not all serial killers have gone after prostitutes. Ted Bundy, for instance, had many college girls as his victims. However, while Bundy was attending the colleges where he sought his prey, he could have concentrated on other women if he chose. When I read that his mother prided herself on having been an excellent student in high school, got nearly all A's, Bundy choosing the college girls and little school girls began to make sense. Just the very idea that there are men like this among us is horrifying.

Montague Druitt was quite a suspect as being the Ripper. Most people here know who he was. About the time his mother was confined to an asylum, the Ripper rampage began, although I do not know the precise date of her confinement. Druitt also lost his teaching job [he was also a barrister] for some unspecified infraction around the same time, which could have upset him quite a bit. Druitt was a dark gentleman, could have passed for "foreign appearing". What bothers me is the idea of Montague committing suicide. Serial killers are tremendously selfish people. There is nothing more selfish than murdering another human being for ones own satisfaction. Self-love and selfishness go together and suicide does not seem to be something such a person would resort to. On the other hand, Druitt left a note which said that he did not want to end up like his mother. He must have felt he was mad or going down that path. Insane asylums of the 19th Century were probably not the places anyone wanted for a permanent address. And still...if Druitt was JTR, he knew he was a good candidate for the hangman's noose, too, if he was found out. If he kept doing what he did, his chances of being apprehended would likely increase and he didn't seem to be able to stop. The gallows or the Thames? I don't know... They all had the option of suicide, these serial killers--and which of them took their own lives? And I doubt any of them worried about going or being crazy.

IF Druitt lost his job, before his death, and I'm not convinced he did, it was after the murders commenced, the date given in the report of the inquest was 30 Dec, some think this was a mis-print in the paper and should have said 30 Nov.

30 Nov pre dates his death, 30 Dec probably post dates his death but pre dates the finding of his body.

[wigngown]

Very good points Caz,

Best regards,

[Aldebaran]

This is as much as I've been able to find out regarding the question of genetically disposed to evil acts. Scroll down on the page past the section about dreams.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...e-people-evil/

"The researchers found that adolescents who had a variation of another gene, which contributes to how quickly serotonin is recycled in the brain and which has been linked to hostile behavior in children, were more likely to exhibit signs of psychopathy."

But even this study acknowledges the importance of environment and abuse in forming the psychopathic personality.

[Errata]

The strangest part of this, for me--when it comes to serial murderers, who like to kill women--is that, even while committing these atrocities, they can acquire girlfriends [whom they don't murder]. fiancees and even wives. Even while obviously harboring a hatred of women, some members of the sex must appeal to them! One might say--well, they killed the hookers because they looked down on them, dehumanized them in their minds--but not all serial killers have gone after prostitutes. Ted Bundy, for instance, had many college girls as his victims. However, while Bundy was attending the colleges where he sought his prey, he could have concentrated on other women if he chose. When I read that his mother prided herself on having been an excellent student in high school, got nearly all A's, Bundy choosing the college girls and little school girls began to make sense. Just the very idea that there are men like this among us is horrifying.

I think the idea that there is a hatred of women is far too simple, and often decidedly untrue. Bundy my have chosen women who had a few points in common with his mother, or even his ex fiance, but he was in no way targeting these women in substitute. Kemper had a horrendous relationship with his mother, possibly even owed his murder spree to her abuses, yes he chose women who were nothing like her. Also targeting co-eds like Bundy. Until he actually killed his mother. Gein of course is the king of hag ridden men, and his choices of murder victim were determined almost solely by availability. You don't have to hate women to butcher and mutilate them. Dahmer didn't kill out of hatred. He killed as a very weird way to express sexual attraction and a desire to form a more permanent relationship. A set of circumstances not peculiar to Dahmer, or to homosexual men. Rage is not hate. Far more often its a byproduct of betrayal, which requires initial trust. Nor does the need to punish signify hate. Often it is simply a byproduct of an overly rigid moral code. Even killing women as a substitute for a woman you cannot touch does not signify hatred of the entire sex. Simply a type of woman.

Jack didn't hate women. If he did he would have lashed out at any woman, not confine himself to a specific kind of woman. He could easily have been married, and even loved his wife because his wife would not have been the kind of woman he had problems with and wanted to to kill. She would have been perfectly safe. As would his daughters and likely his sisters. He was after a specific kind of woman. Any other member of the sex didn't trigger his needs, and so need not fear.

[Aldebaran]

IF Druitt lost his job, before his death, and I'm not convinced he did, it was after the murders commenced, the date given in the report of the inquest was 30 Dec, some think this was a mis-print in the paper and should have said 30 Nov.

30 Nov pre dates his death, 30 Dec probably post dates his death but pre dates the finding of his body.

Wiki claims that Druitt lost his job at the Blackheath boys school on Friday 30 November 1888. The reason for his dismissal is unclear. There has been suspicion of homosexuality where Druitt was concerned. Well, there was no Mrs. Druitt is all one knows now. Certainly, the dismissal came well after the East End murders commenced but, if there was some highly scandalous reason for being fired, that might have seemed more frightening to Druitt than being apprehended by the police for being the Ripper--if, indeed, Druitt was that same man. As the Ripper he was anonymous--but something else about him had been discovered, ending in his disgrace. Only about one in eight barristers was able to make a living at the profession in those days. Obviously, Druitt was not one of them. But how would Druitt find another post as a teacher if something like is suspected had happened at Blackheath? How would he survive?

I am not convinced that Druitt was JTR by any means. But a gay man being close to his mother is almost a cliché. IF [and this is a big if] Druitt was the Ripper, gay and unusually close to Mum, it might have angered him that, while his mother had to endure confinement in an asylum, other women who were not living pure lives were roaming about freely. Just a theory--like so much else.

[Errata]

Wiki claims that Druitt lost his job at the Blackheath boys school on Friday 30 November 1888. The reason for his dismissal is unclear. There has been suspicion of homosexuality where Druitt was concerned. Well, there was no Mrs. Druitt is all one knows now. Certainly, the dismissal came well after the East End murders commenced but, if there was some highly scandalous reason for being fired, that might have seemed more frightening to Druitt than being apprehended by the police for being the Ripper--if, indeed, Druitt was that same man. As the Ripper he was anonymous--but something else about him had been discovered, ending in his disgrace. Only about one in eight barristers was able to make a living at the profession in those days. Obviously, Druitt was not one of them. But how would Druitt find another post as a teacher if something like is suspected had happened at Blackheath? How would he survive?

I am not convinced that Druitt was JTR by any means. But a gay man being close to his mother is almost a cliché. IF [and this is a big if] Druitt was the Ripper, gay and unusually close to Mum, it might have angered him that, while his mother had to endure confinement in an asylum, other women who were not living pure lives were roaming about freely. Just a theory--like so much else.

Straight men who idolize their mothers were raised to do so, either explicitly or through negative reinforcement. Gein's mother raised him on the belief that all women except for her were foul and sinful creatures. Bundy's regard for his mother seems to come from the both of them having a mutual abuser. And while Bundy did have an insanely complicated relationship with his mother, he did still try to protect her to a certain degree. Not to any degree by our standards, but a herculean effort by his standards. So even if he was not complimentary very often he was being his version of kind.

The adoration seen in the stereotypical gay man and his mother scenario has neither. These men weren't raised to fetishize their mothers, they do it because their mothers were often the most accepting people in their lives. That relationship is hero worship. And people do kill over that, but the circumstances are usually much more direct. Killing someone who is a direct obstacle to the object of hero worship. I can't think of an example where the connection was so tenuous as probable prostitutes and an ailing mother.

[Aldebaran]

The adoration seen in the stereotypical gay man and his mother scenario has neither. These men weren't raised to fetishize their mothers, they do it because their mothers were often the most accepting people in their lives. That relationship is hero worship. And people do kill over that, but the circumstances are usually much more direct. Killing someone who is a direct obstacle to the object of hero worship. I can't think of an example where the connection was so tenuous as probable prostitutes and an ailing mother.

I don't really know if Druitt was gay or not. That has only been speculation on account of the incident at the school. Yes, I think a gay man's mother would probably accept him better than most--but I don't see how that would preclude a gay man from having a problem with women other than his mother. Are you saying that you don't believe a gay man could be a serial killer of women? Just other men? I must admit I've never given that much thought. The cases I know of just off the top of my head seem to point in that direction.

[Aldebaran]

Okay--I've checked. Here are the homosexual serial killers.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/hsk.html

According to that site, the only ones who murdered women were thought to have been bisexual. So there goes my theory about a resentful gay man killing prostitutes. It doesn't seem to happen. Wow--this is complex.

So where does that leave us with Druitt as a suspect? He may still be in the running, but not as a homosexual in the strictest sense of the term. If we knew what happened at the school, we might be able to work with that. But we don't.

[Errata]

Okay--I've checked. Here are the homosexual serial killers.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/hsk.html

According to that site, the only ones who murdered women were thought to have been bisexual. So there goes my theory about a resentful gay man killing prostitutes. It doesn't seem to happen. Wow--this is complex.

So where does that leave us with Druitt as a suspect? He may still be in the running, but not as a homosexual in the strictest sense of the term. If we knew what happened at the school, we might be able to work with that. But we don't.

Yes it generally doesn't happen, although there is always Gein, whose sexuality to the best of my knowledge was never determined, but he was making a woman suit. So either a very dysfunctional sort of transgender, or very confused as to how to possibly get out of being gay. Or on the other hand, maybe totally straight and just trying to be his mother. There are other reasons to kill that are in no way sexual. Gein's harvesting was sexually oriented, his murdering was not. He needed parts. So in this case, it may well have been a gay man killing women, just not with a sexual payoff, or one so remote from the actual murder that he never connected the two.

Nothing is impossible. But there are ranges of probability. And unless you get a Gein type killer, the odds of a gay man killing women is very remote.

[caz]

The strangest part of this, for me--when it comes to serial murderers, who like to kill women--is that, even while committing these atrocities, they can acquire girlfriends [whom they don't murder]. fiancees and even wives. Even while obviously harboring a hatred of women, some members of the sex must appeal to them! One might say--well, they killed the hookers because they looked down on them, dehumanized them in their minds--but not all serial killers have gone after prostitutes. Ted Bundy, for instance, had many college girls as his victims. However, while Bundy was attending the colleges where he sought his prey, he could have concentrated on other women if he chose. When I read that his mother prided herself on having been an excellent student in high school, got nearly all A's, Bundy choosing the college girls and little school girls began to make sense. Just the very idea that there are men like this among us is horrifying.

I'm not so sure we can read emotions like 'hatred' [of women for example] into a serial killer's motivation. I doubt Harold Shipman (and I won't apologise for keep coming back to him) felt anything at all towards the huge numbers of patients, male and female, who became his victims over the years. He didn't care enough to hate them; he didn't resent them; he arguably didn't think of them as individuals with their own personalities and real feelings (yet he appeared to love and respect his wife, Primrose); I doubt he even wanted them out of the way. He simply used them to feed his hopeless addiction to taking life, because they were there and kept on coming, day after day, virtually serving themselves up to him on a plate. I doubt he ever thought of his prey in any other terms than the next fix.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

The adoration seen in the stereotypical gay man and his mother scenario has neither. These men weren't raised to fetishize their mothers, they do it because their mothers were often the most accepting people in their lives. That relationship is hero worship. And people do kill over that, but the circumstances are usually much more direct. Killing someone who is a direct obstacle to the object of hero worship. I can't think of an example where the connection was so tenuous as probable prostitutes and an ailing mother.

Hi Errata,

One of my brothers is gay and our mum knew and accepted it almost before he did. But that was about the only really positive connection they had. There was certainly not a hint of 'adoration' on his part, never mind hero worship, and he doesn't have too many happy childhood memories. Mum was a maths teacher at a boys' prep school and would have scared the crap out of me had I been one of her pupils. As it was, she nagged my brothers a lot but tended to leave me alone as the only girl and the middle child, so I considered myself lucky.

Love,

Caz
X

[Aldebaran]

I'm not so sure we can read emotions like 'hatred' [of women for example] into a serial killer's motivation. I doubt Harold Shipman (and I won't apologise for keep coming back to him) felt anything at all towards the huge numbers of patients, male and female, who became his victims over the years. He didn't care enough to hate them; he didn't resent them; he arguably didn't think of them as individuals with their own personalities and real feelings (yet he appeared to love and respect his wife, Primrose); I doubt he even wanted them out of the way. He simply used them to feed his hopeless addiction to taking life, because they were there and kept on coming, day after day, virtually serving themselves up to him on a plate. I doubt he ever thought of his prey in any other terms than the next fix.

I have heard of Shipman but don't recall his story now. Regardless, someone who waited like a spider in a web for victims to come to him makes him different from a prey stalker like Jack, who is the chap we are trying to understand. [As well as such a monster can be comprehended.] Gary Ridgway had an MO that was more like that of the Ripper, although his victim tally was certainly a lot higher. Also, Ridgway targeted prostitutes. Ridgway admitted to hating women--although that should be quite obvious enough.

"Sometimes, the truth had to be pulled out. But eventually, Ridgway admitted stabbing a small boy as a teenager, and acknowledged having problems with women -- beginning with his mother.

"I hate women," he said on tape."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-mind...er-10-02-2004/

Gary Ridgway was married, too, and his wife admitted to having been happy with him. We can't know if the Ripper was married, but Ridgway differed from him that he had sex with his victims. Perhaps Jack wanted to do that, also, but couldn't risk taking the time under the circumstances. In the London of the 19th Century, men didn't have cars that they could drive all over the place and lure any victims into. [That's what Ted Bundy did, too, and he handcuffed them so that they could not escape. Then he bludgeoned them.] As for the East End prostitutes, it looks like many didn't even have a room to which to bring their customers. The best they could do was to pay for shelter during the night. So the sex act had to be performed in public, in some shadowy spot. When a man engages in the sex act, he must lower his guard for at least a minute or two. I think Jack wanted to stay in control.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

One of my brothers is gay and our mum knew and accepted it almost before he did. But that was about the only really positive connection they had. There was certainly not a hint of 'adoration' on his part, never mind hero worship, and he doesn't have too many happy childhood memories. Mum was a maths teacher at a boys' prep school and would have scared the crap out of me had I been one of her pupils. As it was, she nagged my brothers a lot but tended to leave me alone as the only girl and the middle child, so I considered myself lucky.

Love,

Caz
X

Yeah it's a stereotype. I live in the American South where it's far more common for gay men to have a complete alienation from both parents, but when the stereotype does crop up, dear god it's like a Tennessee Williams play.

[John Wheat]

In my opinion the chances of Druitt being the Ripper are virtually zero. For two reasons one because he was probably gay but two and more crucially there is no evidence whatsoever that he was Jack.