GSG/DB/SJ.. all mean nothing?

[Michael W Richards]

The police never felt the Goulston St writing was genuine.

Monty

And how is it that they would arrive at this conclusion Monty? Why do you think they would assume, and that is what we are talking about here...just assumptions,.... that the killer didn't write that message? We know that we don't know how long it was on that wall, we know that no-one saw it there until almost 3am, we know that when it was discovered it was as a result of discovering murder evidence almost directly below it, and we know that in both murders that night, unlike any other "Canonical Evening", Jews played a predominant role...although we didn't know about that in the case of Mitre Square until they knocked on Lawendes door.

I find it quite instructive breaking down these statements to discover what kernels of truth actually lie within....that they guessed it didn't come from the killer, or killers, that night means very little Monty...no more than a guesstimate of how many victims were killed by the same person.

And the fact that in 1896 when a letter arrived with some of the same GSG content in police hands, they immediately had it compared with the handwriting on Ripper letters, some of which I assume they thought were authentic.

Doesn't that seem as if they thought the GSG writing and the killer were indeed connected?

Cheers Monty

[Michael W Richards]

Neither the "Dear Boss" letter or the "Saucy Jacky" letter was accompanied by a bloody article of clothing from one of the victims. A bloodstained piece of cloth torn from Catherine Eddowes' apron was found immediately below the Goulston Street graffito, lending the chalk message slightly greater credibility than the others. However it's true that most police officials discounted all three writings.

John

Did they discount the Lusk Letter, which was accompanied by a sample of an organ taken from Eddowes? Ive heard lots about how the police couldn't be sure whether the sample was taken from Kate..but I don't recall reading how they dismissed it as a hoax letter.

Cheers

[Monty]

Michael,

You seem to have missed my other post.

There is only one entry, Moores, in the official files, where he personally claims the killer wrote the 'Graffito'. All other comments made by Police officials are also personal and made either in private correspondence or publications

There is no official police conclusion which states the killer did or did not leave writing at Goulston Street, and most certainly not "at the time".

It seems some are confusing the individual with the investigation. As Ed states, it was a clue to be innvestigated, not a belief.

Monty

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Michael, all,

What I had in mind was the Anderson comment re. the GSG.. that the police made a grave error in rubbing out the handwriting on the wall, before being photographed, on the basis that this was a CLUE that the KILLER left.

Additionally, when reading the Warren statement again when he explains the rubbing out of the GSG, he doesn't say it wasn't a clue, does he? In other words... he doesn't say "what a load of old tosh, not worth keeping for any reason" for example.



Phil

[pinkmoon]

Why oh why didn't our killer bother to mention he had just killed two women when he stopped to chalk his famous message it would have taken seconds to do also why not send something with the dear boss and saucy jack letters a small piece of victims clothing wouldn't have been hard and my last winge how would he know about news agencies I think a non journalist would send any letters to a well known newspaper.We do owe the sender of the dear boss letter a big thank you because he did give us a cracking name for the murderer.

[Monty]

Hello Michael, all,

What I had in mind was the Anderson comment re. the GSG.. that the police made a grave error in rubbing out the handwriting on the wall, before being photographed, on the basis that this was a CLUE that the KILLER left.

Additionally, when reading the Warren statement again when he explains the rubbing out of the GSG, he doesn't say it wasn't a clue, does he? In other words... he doesn't say "what a load of old tosh, not worth keeping for any reason" for example.



Phil

The first part of the above I agree with almost entirely, from an investigational aspect, not from a policing one.

As for the second part, Warren is non-committal, as he should be. It is a clue to be investigated, merely that.

Monty

[spyglass]

Hi,
For what its worth...my hand writing in chalkj is no where close to my hand writing in ink, even less so using a nib and ink. I know because I tried all three.

regards.

[packers stem]

Extremely odd thing for Anderson to write wasn't it.A CLUE,why clue rather than evidence,just wonder why he chose to use the word which has different implications entirely.Clearly handwriting comparison is utterly rediculous even though it was suggested on the night and attempts were made to copy the writing,as spyglass has pointed out writing with a piece of chalk on a wall in the dark is in no way,shape or form going to be comparable to normal handwriting.
Think i'm more interested in why JTR would be carrying a stick of chalk around anyway unless he planned this in advance

[pinkmoon]

Extremely odd thing for Anderson to write wasn't it.A CLUE,why clue rather than evidence,just wonder why he chose to use the word which has different implications entirely.Clearly handwriting comparison is utterly rediculous even though it was suggested on the night and attempts were made to copy the writing,as spyglass has pointed out writing with a piece of chalk on a wall in the dark is in no way,shape or form going to be comparable to normal handwriting.
Think i'm more interested in why JTR would be carrying a stick of chalk around anyway unless he planned this in advance

Hi,I know people have tried to use the stick of chalk to try and support Druitt what with him being a school teacher I personally do not believe the goulston street message was written by our killer .

[packers stem]

Hi Pinkmoon
Have to agree to disagree on the author of the writing as i think it more likely than not to have been written by JTR .
As for Druitt i've never been convinced but can't think of many trades where someone would carry a stick of chalk around.Teachers ,tailors and possibly a market stall holder ,surely not an everyday item for most people living in the area.If it was written by JTR then the possibility remains that it was taken out with the specific intent of leaving some sort of message,unless we're looking for one of the above tradesmen of course.

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinkmoon
Have to agree to disagree on the author of the writing as i think it more likely than not to have been written by JTR .
As for Druitt i've never been convinced but can't think of many trades where someone would carry a stick of chalk around.Teachers ,tailors and possibly a market stall holder ,surely not an everyday item for most people living in the area.If it was written by JTR then the possibility remains that it was taken out with the specific intent of leaving some sort of message,unless we're looking for one of the above tradesmen of course.

Hi packers,I just can't see our killer taking the time and effort to write this message without making any reference to what he had just done.

[caz]

Hi Pinky,

What if it was merely a "try to keep 'em guessing, keep 'em occupied and keep 'em flustered" kind of exercise? In conjunction with the apron piece, it could have provided the killer with a welcome distraction so he could get himself some much needed shut-eye nearby, while the police were concentrating on searching in and around the Model Dwellings for more 'clues', or just attempting to keep the peace as the market traders began to surface. He wasn't to know how thorough a job they would do, or how many officers might become involved.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Why oh why didn't our killer bother to mention he had just killed two women when he stopped to chalk his famous message it would have taken seconds to do also why not send something with the dear boss and saucy jack letters a small piece of victims clothing wouldn't have been hard and my last winge how would he know about news agencies I think a non journalist would send any letters to a well known newspaper.We do owe the sender of the dear boss letter a big thank you because he did give us a cracking name for the murderer.

Its also worth remembering that the nomme de plume was referring to the murders that took place a month before the so called "Double Event".

If one assumes that one person killed both women on that particular night the GSG seems to be irrelevant, however, if you assume like I do that the murders were not connected by the killer but only by the hype, then the GSG might be an accusation about the murder that took place on the property of anarchists, who were Jews. It need not have come from the killer of either women, but it may well relate to one of the murders.

The swatch of apron did not likely appear almost directly below the message by accident, but it need not have been placed by Eddowes killer either.

Monty, I get your distinction, I just wanted to make it clear that there was a time when police considered that the GSG may have been written by the author of some high profile Ripper letters.

Cheers

[caz]

Exactly HOW, pray tell me, IF the Goulston Street Graffiti was written by the killer, (as was supposed by the police at the time), can anyone from this intrepid bunch identify said graffiti and compare it, by REMEMBERING it please note.... with the Dear Boss and Saucy Jack handwriting.. that was posted all over the place in large posters promoting said killer's handwriting... and say it was by the same hand?....without a photograph? and without a solid memory (which by the above 6 variations shows was totally non-existant anyway)???... and what type of hand was the description of the GSG???? It certainly wasn't the same type of hand that wrote Dear Boss and Saucy Jack!!.. (schoolboy hand?????)

You see... it is impossible to have one load of policemen saying that the killer was the writer of the Goulston St graffiti and another lot saying that the writer of Dear Boss and Saucy Jack was the killer. So all had to say that all three bits of scribble were from the same hand... but it isn't brain surgery....

...it is seriously impossible to say that!!..... given there was no definitive record of the GSG!.... and the types of writing, by known description.....schoolboy hand......vis a vis DB and SJ... don't match at all!
The only conclusion that I can come to is that the GSG and the DB and SJ have nothing to do with each other... and if the GSG isn't the author of the DB letter, or the SJ author... then the GSG wasn't written by the killer.... can't have been.

If the DB and SJ were journalistic inventions, as regarded almost certainly as so after the fact by the police... then they weren't written by the killer either.

Ipso facto. All three are red herrings.

Sorry, Phil, but where's the logic in all this? What the police did and when they did it, and what they happened to believe as individuals, cannot possibly help us to reach any conclusions regarding who left the GSG, who wrote DB and SJ, and whether the killer was responsible for any of the communications.

The first thing to note is that DB had only just reached the police when the GSG was found, so it's not clear which policemen were aware of this letter or its content by that point in time. SJ didn't arrive at the Central News Agency until the following morning, October 1st. Who would have been in a position to think ahead to potential handwriting comparisons between the message and DB (and later SJ) when the decision was taken to erase the former?

I don't know why anyone thinks the police should have been superhuman, but they seem to come in for criticism when they weren't. If nobody involved with the GSG had seen DB or could see SJ coming, they could hardly have been expected to remember the handwriting sufficiently well to make any useful comparisons. That's probably why there was no consensus then, just as there is none today, nor ever likely to be, concerning who wrote what and therefore what was a red herring and what wasn't.

I don't believe that only enterprising journalists would have known about the Central News Agency, and it was only an educated guess on the part of the police that one of their number penned DB and SJ. If the police knew, perhaps they were superhuman after all. Pity they didn't think to leave the evidence on the record.

Love,

Caz
X

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinky,

What if it was merely a "try to keep 'em guessing, keep 'em occupied and keep 'em flustered" kind of exercise? In conjunction with the apron piece, it could have provided the killer with a welcome distraction so he could get himself some much needed shut-eye nearby, while the police were concentrating on searching in and around the Model Dwellings for more 'clues', or just attempting to keep the peace as the market traders began to surface. He wasn't to know how thorough a job they would do, or how many officers might become involved.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi caz,Just can't see him not mentioning what he has just done also by leaving no doubt message was genuine a lot more police would be tied up searching the surrounding buildings .