The GSG. What Does It Mean??

[Sam Flynn]

I suppose it all depends on whether the writer intended the message for his "audience", or whether he was expressing his own feelings. In the first scenario the message simply assumes an aggrieved, possibly antisemitic, mantle. In the second it simply betokens defiance - "Jewish solidarity", if you like. The important thing to note is that neither reading is directly relevant to the murders, unless one adds further layers of interpretation to the mix.

[Fisherman]

What if it was neither negative or positive in regard to jews? What if "the Juwes" were the three gentlemen Lawende, Levy and Harris, as seen by the Ripper exiting the Imperial Club, and if the message meant that the Ripper was not going to blame anybody of them for doing their duty and squealing on him: "The juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing, leastways not by me", sort of?

Just a thought I find intriguing,

Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fish,

What if it was neither negative or positive in regard to jews? What if "the Juwes" were the three gentlemen Lawende, Levy and Harris, as seen by the Ripper exiting the Imperial Club...

How would he have known if they were Jewish? The three men passed Ripper after having left the Club, and we don't know whether he saw them leave. Even if he did, he may not have known that the club was for Jewish businessmen - it appears to have been a small affair, and was only founded in 1886, I seem to recall.

In addition, we don't even know if Jack noticed them much at all, assuming he did take a good look at them. Even if he did, I daresay that they'd have come across as upper working-class gentlemen - for such they were - fairly respectably dressed.

No slight whatsoever intended - and I appreciate that this was only an idea on your behalf - but supposing "Juwes" to relate to Lawende etc. illustrates perfectly what I meant by adding "further layers of interpretation to the mix".

[DVV]

Hi Fisherman and all,
in the category "just a thought", I remind a post (from the archives...?) that connected "nothing" with Eddowes answering "Nothing" as her name, when in custody.
Just a reminiscence I find intriguing!

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Of course it is another layer of interpretation, Sam. But since it has not helped to try and solve the riddle by using ancient Mongolian handscripts read from the end, or by reading elements of cryptic West-Samoan rites for funerals of self-beheaded rabbits into it, I fail to see why new interpretations should NOT be applied. And this time we do not have to read anything into the matter than what is said in the message, which I consider something of a relief...!
If the Ripper did not know that the Imperial Club was jewish, fair enough. But then again, he may of course have been very much aware that it WAS jewish. I don´t think we can make any safe assumptions either way. A simple thing, like an article in a newspaper or a tell-tale sign outside the club may have given it´s religious contents away.

For what it´s worth, I have never been much of a GSG addict myself. But if I am to accept it, I prefer to do it with the help of a logical understanding that can be applied to the actual events!

David, I wish I could tell if you are pulling my leg or not; the French are the men that will not pull the Swedes legs for nothing, mind you!

The best, Sam, David!

Fisherman

[DVV]

David, I wish I could tell if you are pulling my leg or not; the French are the men that will not pull the Swedes legs for nothing, mind you!

Fisherman

Of course not, Fisherman,
I appreciated your thought as much as I appreciated the old remark about "nothing". I admit I don't believe them to be true for one second, though I find them somehow stimulating and brillant. More than reducing us as a "French" and a "Swedish"!

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Being called a Swede has nothing of reduction to it, David! And for all I know, the same goes for the French, at least the ones I´ve come across.

If you are familiar with my earlier posts, you will know that I have never been one to see the GSG as connected to the murders. But as things stand, I am working along a line where it is actually an outward possibility to apply the message - interpreted the way I suggested - to my scenario. That´s why I decided to throw it up on the table and see what happened!

The best, mon ami!

Fisherman

[DVV]

Being called a Swede has nothing of reduction to it, David! And for all I know, the same goes for the French, at least the ones I´ve come across.

If you are familiar with my earlier posts, you will know that I have never been one to see the GSG as connected to the murders. But as things stand, I am working along a line where it is actually an outward possibility to apply the message - interpreted the way I suggested - to my scenario. That´s why I decided to throw it up on the table and see what happened!

The best, mon ami!

Fisherman

In Southern France and Corsica, we have ambiguous feelings about France. After all, the Franks were a Dutch-speaking tribe, and Provence did exist before France...but no matter...
I know your position about the GSG and the murders, but this thread is more about the meaning of the GSG, though the question of his author is never far.

Adessias, moun bèu!
Dàvi

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Stephen,
I understand that the wording is open to debate.
But suppose you are a "Gentile" going to the market on this Sunday morning.
You see the graffito and read it.
What would have been your first understanding of it? Would it have been the one you are suggesting now?

Amitiés,
David

Yes David, mon ami
In English, and of course in American English common speech, the double negative is used for emphasis. For instance I came home from a hard day's work recently and my wife wanted me to go out somewhere. I said, 'I'm tired and I don't want to anywhere'. When she tried to insist I then said 'Look, I'm NOT going NOWHERE'. David, please imagine that that you are a frenzied disemboweller with a dead lady's kidney in your pocket. Would you stop to write a chalk message on a wall (in tiny lettering) that included a double negative that actually meant a positive?

[DVV]

Hi Stephen,
I guess I would not stop at all to chalk any message! Still some police at the time interpreted the GSG, double negative or not, as antisemitic. As well as some English-speaking posters here.
Another problem is that the wording does not sound like a sentence exchanged between friends, or home. To me, it's both clumsy and pompous, isn't it?

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Stephen Thomas asks:

"Would you stop to write a chalk message on a wall (in tiny lettering) that included a double negative that actually meant a positive?"

I don´t know nothing about that, Stephen. But I do believe that regardless of who wrote the GSG, the double negative was not something that was inserted as an conscious element of style.

David, I think you are right when you write that it looks both pompous and clumsy - but only if you look at it the traditional way. If you use the interpretation I suggested some posts back, it does not have that tone at all. Then it becomes ordinary, unpretentious cockney, nothing else.

The best, both of you!

Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The whole GSG thing has become blown totally out of proportion.
No killer running away from a crime scene would stop to chalk up a message in a neat schoolboy's hand and quite low on the jamb (at shoulder-height) and that is so small and insignificant, not to mention the fact its content does not in any way relate to the murders. We can discuss til Kindom Come what it means, but fact remains that such a scenario is unlikely.

The message became explosive because of the apron found in connection with it, and because it was found in an area with a very high Jewish population. This was the only concern of the Met police - that the message might further inflame the antisemitic situation in the area. The message was found smack bang in the middle of Jewish vendor territory, with Wentworth Street right around the corner and the most logical explanation is that it was antisemitic and that it might have been directed towards Jewish traders and written by an unsatisfied customer. The location of the message plus the fact that it never mentions anything of relevance regarding the murders makes this pretty likely.

Why the apron was dropped there - or if the Ripper just happened to see it as he by sheer coincidence saw it when he stopped in the doorway - is another question and that is the real mystery but the message was most certainly not written by the killer.

All the best

[The Good Michael]

No killer running away from a crime scene would stop to chalk up a message in a neat schoolboy's hand and quite low on the jamb.

Agreed

and the most logical explanation is that it was antisemitic and that it might have been directed towards Jewish traders and written by an unsatisfied customer.

That is not the most logical explanation. The most logical explanation is that it was written by an unhappy Jew, and that the police were afraid that a disgruntled Jew's message would exacerbate the already volatile Jew/Non-Jew situation. And let me add that a message written by a non-Jew would hardly add to the contemporary mindset of the locals, whereas a message suggesting pro-Jewish sentiment would be very inflamatory in the minds of locals who already hated them.

I do agree that it wasn't written by the murderer. Yet it was possibly the same sentiment he felt.

Cheers,

Mike

[Rosey O'Ryan]

The whole GSG thing has become blown totally out of proportion.
No killer running away from a crime scene would stop to chalk up a message in a neat schoolboy's hand and quite low on the jamb (at shoulder-height) and that is so small and insignificant, not to mention the fact its content does not in any way relate to the murders. We can discuss til Kindom Come what it means, but fact remains that such a scenario is unlikely.

The message became explosive because of the apron found in connection with it, and because it was found in an area with a very high Jewish population. This was the only concern of the Met police - that the message might further inflame the antisemitic situation in the area. The message was found smack bang in the middle of Jewish vendor territory, with Wentworth Street right around the corner and the most logical explanation is that it was antisemitic and that it might have been directed towards Jewish traders and written by an unsatisfied customer. The location of the message plus the fact that it never mentions anything of relevance regarding the murders makes this pretty likely.

Why the apron was dropped there - or if the Ripper just happened to see it as he by sheer coincidence saw it when he stopped in the doorway - is another question and that is the real mystery but the message was most certainly not written by the killer.

All the best

Mr Andersson,

A lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' and 'likely'. Please provide a rational discourse regarding the apron connudrum...you are quite capable of that! Them there "Juwes" are tricky folk.
Rosey.

[Dan Norder]

No killer running away from a crime scene would stop to chalk up a message in a neat schoolboy's hand and quite low on the jamb (at shoulder-height) and that is so small and insignificant,

Other killers have left messages at or near crime scenes, so I don't know where you get your "no killer" claim from. If it was left by the killer, having it be closer to the apron would make the connection more clear, and if it was on the door jamb the size of the writing would be a consequence of how little room there was to write more than any intent to make it small, regardless of who wrote it.

not to mention the fact its content does not in any way relate to the murders.

You wouldn't know that unless you know for a fact what it means. The standard beliefs of the police and several authors interpret it as relating to the murders, so why you insist that it doesn't is beyond me.