Time-gap between Eddowes murder and Goulston Graffito

[Sam Flynn]

Where does the "passing second" come from?

I've been there and, provided the chip-shop isn't open, it only takes me a second to walk past.

How do we know that he was not a lot more thorough? How do we know that he did not step into the doorway?

Why on earth would he, if he didn't notice anything untoward? From Long's perspective, he was merely embarking on yet another routine slog around the streets - which is more than can be said for Halse, actually. The latter had been tasked to look out for people, so arguably had more, not less, of a reason to look into doorways.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn:

I've been there and, provided the chip-shop isn't open, it only takes me a second to walk past.

I´ve been there too, Gareth. And the chips ARE yummy!

But neither of us have been there in the shape of a PC with the task to check the doorways for burglaries and such things, have we?

Why on earth would he, if he didn't notice anything untoward?

Because it was his job to check the doorways?

From Long's perspective, he was merely embarking on yet another routine slog around the streets - which is more than can be said for Halse, actually. The latter had been tasked to look out for people, so arguably had more, not less, of a reason to look into doorways.

Oh, come on, Gareth! Halse would have loved to check every doorway if he had the time, I´m sure - but alas, he did not. It would take oceans of time, and meanwhile, the killer or important witnesses could leave the area.
Let´s look at what Halse said:

"At two minutes to two o'clock on the Sunday morning, when near Aldgate Church, in company with Detectives Outram and Marriott, I heard that a woman had been found murdered in Mitre-square. We ran to the spot, and I at once gave instructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man stopped and examined. I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two..."

So, Gareth, Halse RAN to Mitre Square from Aldgate Church - but he probably stopped at the doorways and looked into them? Then he gave instructions to his men to search the neighbourhood and every man stopped and examined.
He somehow forgot to mention that they should search the doorways too, apparently.
Then we have Halse himself zig-zagging streets, coming from Middlesex Street into Wentworth Street, meaning that he has first travelled north way over the Happy Days doorway, then returned south, he stops two men in Wentworth Street, questions them, and carries on further east before turning into Goulston Street...
...and all of this, starting out from Aldgate Church, running to Mitre Square, instructing his men, going on a zig-zag safari, he managed in twenty minutes - and he checked the doorways as he did it?

Halse would have made haste in order not to let his quarry slip away, Gareth. He would not have prioritized the doorways, although he would have scanned the streets as well as he could, while rushing on. In a situation like that, pressed for time, desperately running street up and street down, Halse would not have been in a favourable position to pick up on details like rags in doorways. He did say, of course, that he did not notice the rag as he passed the Goulston Street doorway, meaning that he WAS making an effort to pick up on as much as he could - but it would be far too much to ask that he carefully searched the doorways as he rushed through the East End streets looking for people!

All the best - and goodnight for now!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

How about Mizen? Liar, clumsy, mistaken...? Or diligent, honest, truthful?

For another thread, of course. Just curious.

The best,
Fisherman

Most of the cops in the Buck's Row case fibbed a bit. But not about finding evidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Wasn't Long looking for the killer and wasn't time of the essence? I would think his task would be to take a look into the doorway, confirm that there was no one hiding there and then continue the process as quickly as possible. If that were the case, I can see him missing the apron since, as Sam pointed out, he wouldn't necessarily be looking at the floor.

c.d.

I would say the opposite is true. When an officer knows a crime is committed, his senses are heightened. They'll see what they'd normally miss. Had the graffiti and apron been there at that time, he likely would have seen them. But of course there's the human element to take into consideration, so naturally mistakes could happen. I'd say Sam's argument would be more persuasive if we were talking about only one constable and not two.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Oh, come on, Gareth! Halse would have loved to check every doorway if he had the time, I´m sure - but alas, he did not.

Halse was out deliberately looking for people, and pumped up with adrenalin, no doubt. Long, in contrast, was trudging along on what (to him) was just another routine beat. Halse would have been infinitely more "switched on", that's for sure.

[Sam Flynn]

Then we have Halse himself zig-zagging streets, coming from Middlesex Street into Wentworth Street

So, it's possible - probable? - that Halse's angle of approach to Wentworth Model Dwellings wasn't the same as Long's, and that their sight-lines were rather different.

all of this, starting out from Aldgate Church, running to Mitre Square, instructing his men, going on a zig-zag safari... and he checked the doorways as he did it?

Not checked the doorways, Fish, but at least glanced at one or two along the way, as Halse looked for possible fugitives from Mitre Square. As opposed to thinking about putting his feet up by a warm fire and drinking a nice cup of tea, for example.

[harry]

No one is one hundred per cent all of the time in what they do,or honest a hundred per cent of the time.The problem will not be solved by arguing around those facts.W hat Long saw was known only to Long.Better to try to understand why the apron piece was taken in the first place,why it might have served it's purpose before or at Wentworth buildind,and why,if the apron was placed to draw attention to the writing,did the killer write a message whose meaning has baffled so many for so long.W as that the intent,and w hy only in that instance.In addition,if it was an after thought,and the killer ventured out later fom his dwelling,why did it have to be Wentworth building that he chose?

[curious]

if the apron was placed to draw attention to the writing,did the killer write a message whose meaning has baffled so many for so long.

The killer was a very disturbed person.

I have a woman who consistently writes press releases that are incomprehensible. For many years, she has made a living as an artist in several fields, but even her friends find her impossible to understand -- when talking to her. She's a benign example of someone whose thoughts and communication are different from everyone around her.

The killer would most likely have been on a different wavelength from everyone around him. I don't think it's too "out there" to think he thought he was making himself plain.

curious

[J6123]

I don't think it's too "out there" to think he thought he was making himself plain.
curious

very much agree with that. it's impossible to get inside the mind of somebody that demented.

[Barnaby]

very much agree with that. it's impossible to get inside the mind of somebody that demented.

I think that this is overstated. Robert Ressler of FBI profiling fame who supposedly coined the term serial killer wrote of looking into the abyss. I think that he surely got into the heads of serial killers. To name just one.

While it is an inarguable truth that we will never know for sure what it was like to be Jack the Ripper (or anyone else, dead or alive, save ourselves - and this "problem of other minds" has been recognized by philosophers/psychologists for centuries), to say that there is no way at all to predict his thinking/behavior is a reach. People, even psychologically disturbed ones, tend to behave fairly predictably once one identifies relevant variables controlling their behavior.

[Michael W Richards]

I think that this is overstated. Robert Ressler of FBI profiling fame who supposedly coined the term serial killer wrote of looking into the abyss. I think that he surely got into the heads of serial killers. To name just one.

While it is an inarguable truth that we will never know for sure what it was like to be Jack the Ripper (or anyone else, dead or alive, save ourselves - and this "problem of other minds" has been recognized by philosophers/psychologists for centuries),.... to say that there is no way at all to predict his thinking/behavior is a reach. People, even psychologically disturbed ones, tend to behave fairly predictably once one identifies relevant variables controlling their behavior.

I really liked the way you addressed that point Barnaby, although I differ from you on what value serial killer analysis has in the study of the alleged "Ripper" crimes. All of the Canonicals are unsolved murders, let alone the 7 or so also in that same file.

But I agree...idiosyncrasies can be identified, patterns discovered, perhaps even mania's identified when you have very similar murders in a short period of time to compare. We have that with Polly and Annie, but Im at a loss to suggest anything beyond those 2 as almost certainly done by the same lone man.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Harry

No one is one hundred per cent all of the time in what they do, or honest a hundred per cent of the time. The problem will not be solved by arguing around those facts. What Long saw was known only to Long. Better to try to understand why the apron piece was taken in the first place, why it might have served it's purpose before or at Wentworth buildind, and why, if the apron was placed to draw attention to the writing,did the killer write a message whose meaning has baffled so many for so long. Was that the intent,and why only in that instance. In addition,if it was an afterthought, and the killer ventured out later fom his dwelling,why did it have to be Wentworth building that he chose?

Sound posting mate...iin my humble opinion one of the most sensible on the whole thread!

All the best

Dave

[Sam Flynn]

idiosyncrasies can be identified, patterns discovered, perhaps even mania's identified when you have very similar murders in a short period of time to compare. We have that with Polly and Annie, but Im at a loss to suggest anything beyond those 2 as almost certainly done by the same lone man.

Not even Eddowes? There are arguably more similarities between Catherine and Annie than between Annie and Polly, although I'd personally associate the same killer with all three.

[Cogidubnus]

Too right Gareth - if there are to be outliers, (and, largely thanks to Tom's book, I'm personally far from sure about how many and who), then let them be Long Liz and MJK

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

unskillful

Hello Gareth. That depends on WHAT was done, not HOW it was done. I am thinking of Baxter's summation at the Stride inquest.

Cheers.
LC