Time-gap between Eddowes murder and Goulston Graffito

[DRoy]

That is correct - it IS the simplest solution. But if it is the true solution, well, that is another matter altogether.

Okay Fish, let's see where you take this. The simple solution vs the true one (presumably yours)...what 'evidence' do you provide to us...

For all we know he may have enjoyed the challenge, Edward!

Supposition

Letīs not forget that if he killed Stride, then he would - judging from the apron - have walked eastwards after the Eddowes deed, taking him closer to peril with every step if he left immediately after the Eddowes strike.

Supposition

If Lechmere was the killer

Supposition

And he would do so with his pocket filled with innards, quite possibly.

Supposition

To my mind, it makes perfect sense that he deposited the innards at Pickfords, cleaned up as best as he could and then set out on his way back home again. The one strange thing about it is that he would not have dumped the apron at Pickfords, and - as I have said before - that points to necessity being the reason he did not do so. Which is why I believe he may have used the rag as a makeshift bandage.
It would conveniently explain how the rag could be wet with blood in one corner when found, as I have demonstrated.

Entirely supposition

But the combination of the coroners very forgiving way of asking his question: "Are you able to say...?" and Longs certainty: "It was not", speaks to me of a PC that would not be held responsible for being lax if he simply said "I donīt think it was there, but I cannot be completely certain".

Personal opinion, no evidence

But Long did not employ that strategy, and I can only assume that was because he did not need to - he knew the answer to the question quite well.

Personal assumption, no evidence

...the 2.55 development tells us that without knowing about the murders,

Supposition

The combination of this thorough enough search at 2.55 and his certainty at the inquest makes for a very good argument that Long was truthful. In fact, I donīt see how it could have been any better; we KNOW that he was the real McCoy at 2.55 and we know that the real McCoy asserts us that the rag was not in place at 2.20. Thatīs as good as it gets. It adds up, with a PC that has proven himself.

Supposition. He may have believed he was being truthful

I left a few out but I just wanted to show how 'evidence' is only evidence when you believe so much in something because of your personal theory. I have no theory, no suspect, therefore I'm not clouded by the 'evidence' some push on others.

Sorry to everyone for the long post. I'll move on from this thread as I'm sure it will please most. I think it has been shown quite clearly that there is very little time gap if one will only consider Long was mistaken. But yes, it is still possible Long was correct and therefore the possibilities are endless (including Lechmere being the killer).

Cheers
DRoy

[Monty]

Nice post DRoy.

Monty

[Fisherman]

DRoy:

Okay Fish, let's see where you take this. The simple solution vs the true one (presumably yours)...what 'evidence' do you provide to us...

Quote:
For all we know he may have enjoyed the challenge, Edward!

Supposition

No. I said he MAY have enjoyed the challenge. That is no supposition, it is the simple truth. A supposition would be "He probably enjoyed the challenge".

Quote:
Letīs not forget that if he killed Stride, then he would - judging from the apron - have walked eastwards after the Eddowes deed, taking him closer to peril with every step if he left immediately after the Eddowes strike.

Supposition

Are you saying that the police would not have been present in the Berner Street area? Thatīs interesting.

Quote:
If Lechmere was the killer
Supposition

No, DRoy. An "if" is not a supposition. It merely establishes a suggested theoretical basis. If I say "If God exists ..." , I am not necessarily supposing that he (or she) does. I only produce an angle from which we can discuss matters. God may or may not discuss regardless of that.

If I had said that Lechmere WAS the killer, THEN I would have supposed. As it stands, I supposed nothing.

Quote:
And he would do so with his pocket filled with innards, quite possibly.
Supposition

"Quite possibly" is not a supposition either. A supposition would have been "He had innards in his pocket". It would still have been a useful supposition, but a supposition nevertheless.

Letīs stop here. It would appear you have totally misunderstood what a supposition is.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Double post. Disregard.

[Abby Normal]

Eh - the post you quoted was Edwards, not mine.

Fisherman

'twas a joke based on lechs first line responding to your post.

[Abby Normal]

Of course long was mistaken, because we all know the ripper never did anything out of the ordinary.

Good grief.

[Lechmere]

Abby - don't make jokes on here in future.
This is a serious site.

Fisherman
On a topographical note, a return journey down Wentworth and Old Montague Streets would not I think endanger a fugitive double murderer from the Berner Street locus. It is sufficiently distant I feel.

The Broad Street bolt hole is a very tempting way point and potentially explains much. But we just don't know.

[Hunter]

Long would have spent his first few rounds that night getting the timing of his beat down. Completing his round on time may have affected his diligence in effectively checking some locations until he gained familiarity. He even admitted that he wasn't familiar with the buildings. The jury Foreman had asked him about the chance of someone escaping the building while he went to take the cloth to Commercial St. station. After he responded, "Not from the front," the coroner asked him if he knew about the back and Long replied that he didn't.

If his beat started around 10 o'clock he hadn't made many rounds by the time he found the apron.

[Fisherman]

'twas a joke based on lechs first line responding to your post.

Ah, a joke ! Seems theyīre all over the place nowadays ...

Anyhow, Abby, the old "Lechmere and Fisherman are one and the same"-perception is not a very odd one; if Lechmere is to be fitted into the frame, then the road that must be walked will be a narrow one. And thatīs not something that should surprise anybody - the things people do are always narrow in the meaning that they donīt use multiple approaches to things, if you see what I mean. If it QWAS Lechmere, then he did not walk three different streets simultaneously, he did not strike at five different removes in time per victim, he did not wear four sets of clothes at the same time (even though the testimony sometimes seems to implicate such a thing), etcetera, etcetera ...

Edward and I both have to accept this narrowness, and it will lead us to very similar conclusions many a time. Not always though, as can be seen on this thread!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Abby - don't make jokes on here in future.
This is a serious site.

Fisherman
On a topographical note, a return journey down Wentworth and Old Montague Streets would not I think endanger a fugitive double murderer from the Berner Street locus. It is sufficiently distant I feel.

The Broad Street bolt hole is a very tempting way point and potentially explains much. But we just don't know.

Some route would be distant enough, of course. Whether Old Montague/Wentworth was, who can say? We can see from Halseīs movements that he covered a fair bit of ground.
At the end of the day, much will depend on how the killer reasoned and what risks he was willing to take; unknown factors, hidden from us.

Just like you say, there is no knowing what applied in the Long errand. To me, his certainty is quite enough to make me opt for the apron arriving in Goulston Street after 2.20. But Iīm fine with other suggestions too, as long as they are not elevated to the better bid, courtesy of our thoughts and ideas. The risk that they will differ from those of the killer is far too obvious.

All the best!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Long would have spent his first few rounds that night getting the timing of his beat down. Completing his round on time may have affected his diligence in effectively checking some locations until he gained familiarity.

With respect, Cris, then he could have said that exact thing when the coroner asked him about it. Who could have blamed him?

All we are left with is speculation, it seems. One may, contrary to your suggestion (that sounds logical enough) speculate that he anxiously checked every doorway on his first rounds to get a feel of the territory and learn itīs nooks and crannies, only to relax and cut himself some slack later on (which also sounds logical enough).

The PC:s were not exactly required to run. There was plenty of time allowed for finishing the rounds, so I think Long could have been very meticulous from step one.

But as I say, this is all speculation. The fact that Long stated adamantly that the rag was not in place at 2.20 is not.

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Beat constables were expected to walk their beat at 3 1/2 miles per hour, and were also expected to be at a fixed point, at a certain time, to meet up with their section sergeant and report on any matters of concern.

Monty

[Abby Normal]

With respect, Cris, then he could have said that exact thing when the coroner asked him about it. Who could have blamed him?

All we are left with is speculation, it seems. One may, contrary to your suggestion (that sounds logical enough) speculate that he anxiously checked every doorway on his first rounds to get a feel of the territory and learn itīs nooks and crannies, only to relax and cut himself some slack later on (which also sounds logical enough).

The PC:s were not exactly required to run. There was plenty of time allowed for finishing the rounds, so I think Long could have been very meticulous from step one.

But as I say, this is all speculation. The fact that Long stated adamantly that the rag was not in place at 2.20 is not.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish
if long was correct, do you have the time interval because lech went to pickfords after the eddowes murder to drop off his goodies, knife, get cleaned up a bit, (maybe grab the chalk) before heading home and depositing the apron in goulston street along the way?

[Michael W Richards]

because he didn't know he was going to be interrupted by a bunch of jews that night so he did not bring any chalk with him to implicate/get back at them for pissing him off.

Although thats within the realm of the possible, once again, its worth noting that there is zero evidence that Liz Strides killer was interrupted by anyone, and in the passing Jew in Berner Street story given Sunday night, BSM wasnt prevented from mutilating anyone...unless your belief is that he intended to kill and mutilate Stride somewhere on the opposite side of the street, where he apparently was pulling her to.

The cloth and the grafitto may well have arrived from the same source, sometime after 2:20 and before 3am, but the killer was not the only local source for animosity towards the Jews. The writer and the cloth may have been dropped by someone who merely intended to blame the kill on Berner Street on the Jews.

Cheers

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish
if long was correct, do you have the time interval because lech went to pickfords after the eddowes murder to drop off his goodies, knife, get cleaned up a bit, (maybe grab the chalk) before heading home and depositing the apron in goulston street along the way?

Pretty much, yes. If he normally did drop his trophies somewhere at Pickfords - and I think he did - it would be inconsistent to bring parts of Eddowes home with him and risk being met in the doorway by his wife. If he had a safe storage, why not use it?

I donīt think he would grab any chalk, though, since I am not any GSG subscriber. Could of course be wrong on that count, though, just as I could be wrong altogether on the Long bit. I can only say how I reason.
As Iīve said before, it remains a bit of an anomaly that he brought the apron to and from Pickfords, which is why I believe he may have used the rag as a makeshift bandage if he cut himself in Mitre Square. This would explain why he hung on to it for the longst - and why a corner of the rag was still "wet with blood" when Long found it.

The best,
Fisherman