piece of apron

[Trevor Marriott]

Tests based on descriptions, I'd be a bit weary about those. Experiments based on inexactitudes can and are most likely to be awfully flawed.

Blood will dry with relative quickness, possibly in a matter of minutes. But other such bodily fluids? Faecal etc are a whole different ball game. Might I add these were also said to be found on said apron piece.

You are correct they were they were but not all in one place which is where you might expect to find them if the killer had wiped his hands blood and faecal matter mixed in. Again the apron piece was not described in that way.

Note the apron piece was also described as also being wet now how did it get wet under the archway?

I have discussed these issues many time on here and I say that if you want to believe the old theory that the killer did all of these things with the apron piece then so be it. But don't be to dismissive of the results of new researche and new theories on the topic.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor. Thanks for posting that.

"Now take a look at the results as shown in the photo even despite the lack of oxygenated blood the cloth is heavily blood stained."

I would describe that as wet--but mostly with serum/plasma. In fact, consonant with one of the descriptions.

However, I agree that the piece were not used for organ transportation.

Cheers.
LC

Ah at last we agree on something !

[lynn cates]

alternates

Hello Thomas. Thanks.

"Piece of Eddowes's apron ends up a few streets down/couple minutes walk from the scene of her murder, but can't have been put there by the ripper?"

Can't? That's a grave level of modal involvement. "Unlikely" strikes me as more suitable.

"C'mon, let's not rule it out, especially as there is nothing to prove otherwise."

A "proof" is deductive; we are doing induction. And I do not rule it out. But if the cloth is to wipe hands, it should be completed LONG before Goulston.

"Hypothesising that piece of apron was planted there by the another hand to create an impact next to the GSG is only opening 'more cans of worms'. Maybe it was Rebecca Brooks and The News Of The World?"

Haven't met her. But I am open to alternate suggestions. Have any?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

matter

Hello Trevor.

"On a footnote blood on a persons hands when exposed to the atmosphere will dry on its own in a matter of minutes. The actual time will depend on the temperature of the persons body and the external elements."

Quite. But the stain remains.

Of course, faeculent matter will still be there.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pointed remark

Hello Thomas. Thanks.

". . .how do we not know the ripper hadn't already gotten rid of the apron piece inside/closer to Mitre Square, and it was then moved all that way by a third party?"

But that is my WHOLE point.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

slow

Hello (again) Thomas. Thanks.

"That doesn't take much of a LEAP of logic for me if I'm honest."

But it takes a good bit of explanation. He needs to be ESPECIALLY slow.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Tests based on descriptions, I'd be a bit weary about those. Experiments based on inexactitudes can and are most likely to be awfully flawed.

Blood will dry with relative quickness, possibly in a matter of minutes. But other such bodily fluids? Faecal etc are a whole different ball game. Might I add these were also said to be found on said apron piece.

I like you El....you can stay.

Monty

[lynn cates]

Hope springs eternal . . .

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

"Ah at last we agree on something!"

Indeed. Perhaps some day you will agree with me that Kate's killer was a cunning and calculating chap trying to pass off Kate's demise with the first two killings.

Cheers.
LC

[El White Chap]

Hello (again) Thomas. Thanks.

"That doesn't take much of a LEAP of logic for me if I'm honest."

But it takes a good bit of explanation. He needs to be ESPECIALLY slow.

Cheers.
LC

1.35am last sighting of Eddowes with unknown male Church passage
1.45am Eddowes found murdered
2.20am P.C. Alfred Long walks past Wentworth dwellings without noticing anything in the archway, neither GSG or piece of apron.
2.55am GSG and piece of apron found, more than an hour after Eddowes is found murdered and mutilated.


This would suggest 4 possibilities:
1. The ripper hid in the area/close to the area between Mitre Square and GS. That there was some safehouse/hideout available.
2. Returned to the area within the 1hour+ to leave the apron there.
Seemingly unlikely and illogical given the police presence at risk levels.
3. It was planted by a third party. Enter the many conspiracy theories...
4. The apron was in the archway of the Wentworth dwellings much earlier than it was found and was overlooked during that time.

Are there anymore realistic/solid possibilities? No animal theories please!

[Tecs]

My dear lynn I think we can safely assume if some one is running about killing and mutilating women then they have got some form of mental problem.To what degree we don't know but certainly these actions are not the actions of a completely normal person

Hi all,

The problem with the above "logic" is that it could excuse any criminal act. In other words normal people don't commit crime therefore anybody who does, de facto, can't be normal. In which case they must have something wrong with them, probably a mental issue of some sort. This could then lead to any criminal being forgiven because they can't help it.

The case I'm thinking of is the Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe. There is abundant evidence that he simply enjoyed killing women and was never schizophrenic or suffered from any other malady. Without going into the case in detail, several factors clearly point to him being perfectly normal and killing for fun and pleasure. Certainly that's what the jury at his trial believed. Most people forget that Sutcliffe was found guilty of murder when the jury saw through his nonsense about voices etc. He may be mad now after three decades of the chemical cosh, but it doesn't mean he was when he committed his crimes. (I live near Ashworth where Ian Brady is and know a couple of people who work there. They have told me some very sad stories of people who were imprisoned for something very minor, then given powerful and often experimental drugs to combat their supposed malady which led to them becoming mentally ill, like a self fulfilling prophecy.)


Sorry for going on there! What I wanted to ask was, in his audio version of the case, Martin Fido says that the writing had been smudged meaning people had brushed past it and so was therefore not the work of the Ripper.

Just wondered what anybody thought of that?

regards,

[El White Chap]

Perhaps some day you will agree with me that Kate's killer was a cunning and calculating chap trying to pass off Kate's demise with the first two killings.

The first two killings being WHICH exact TWO victims of the many Whitechapel Murders?

[El White Chap]

I like you El....you can stay.

Monty

Thanks for the welcome Monty. Stay? I'll be here 'terrorising' at least for the Autumn.

[El White Chap]

But that is my WHOLE point.

Hello Lynn, was obvious to me but wasn't sure about others, you were indirectly indicating that much anyhow. I just wanted to test the water and see you make a more committed and direct statement to that avail.

[Fisherman]

This would suggest 3 possibilities:
1. The ripper hid in the area/close to the area between Mitre Square and GS. That there was some safehouse/hideout available.
2. Returned to the area within the 1hour+ to leave the apron there.
Seemingly unlikely and illogical given the police presence at risk levels.
3. It was planted by a third party. Enter the many conspiracy theories...

Are there anymore realistic/solid possibilities? No animal theories please!

An overlooked rag is always a possibility, El. But I would happily buy option 1 here. As for specific addresses, my money is on Broad Street, since I favour Charles Lechmere as the killer. He would have killed Stride close to his motherīs quarters, proceeded along his old work route to Broad Street, killed Eddowes, gone on to Pickfords on Broad Street to hide out, and then he would set sail for Doveton Street, passing Goulston Street on his way home.

So option 1, thank you very much!

The best,
Fisherman

[El White Chap]

An overlooked rag is always a possibility, El. But I would happily buy option 1 here. As for specific addresses, my money is on Broad Street, since I favour Charles Lechmere as the killer. He would have killed Stride close to his motherīs quarters, proceeded along his old work route to Broad Street, killed Eddowes, gone on to Pickfords on Broad Street to hide out, and then he would set sail for Doveton Street, passing Goulston Street on his way home.

So option 1, thank you very much!

The best,
Fisherman

I posted an option 4, albeit added a short while after my original post, just one minute before you posted a reply to my options mentioning it could have been overlooked. How bizarre!