GSG j or d

[GregBaron]

Plenty of time between rounds...

everyone knew the heavy military tread of the policeman could be heard at night time a quarter of a mile at least. He dared say that military tread was very dear to the military ear of the Chief Commissioner, but it certainly gave timely warning to evildoers.

Doesn't this seem odd everyone. The ripper is loose and the keystone coppers are goose-stepping in heavy boots.......


Greg

[Wickerman]

Greg.
I think this is a fallacy.
The policeman on the beat were not issued with new 'military-style' boots just because Charles Warren took charge, so blaming Warren makes for a false argument. The police always had the same footwear.

Re-issuing policemen with different footwear was not deemed necessary, and probably rightly so, besides it was only the night shift to whom this problem applies.
Some innovative ideas were adopted, like, attaching strips of rubber to their soles to deaden the noise.
Though I can't imagine how this would impede the ability to run very fast.

[moonbegger]

I think this is a fallacy.

But we do have many reports from people who were there at the time indicating as much .. are they all a fallacy ?

PC Neil .. From 60 yards ..

I heard a constable passing Brady-street, so I called him. I did not whistle.

One of many newspaper quotes regarding the heavy military style tread of the London Bobby , that everyone seemed to be aware of ..

everyone knew the heavy military tread of the policeman could be heard at night time a quarter of a mile at least. He dared say that military tread was very dear to the military ear of the Chief Commissioner, but it certainly gave timely warning to evildoers.

cheers

moonbegger

[Bridewell]

Overlap

I want to make a point about times. In all the statements, everyone rounds off times to the nearest 5 minute point. That means they didn't know the exact time ever. Serious leeway must be given for the various time estimations. This of course makes many more variations possible for all the circumstances of every murder.

Mike

Hi, Mike,

This is a perfectly fair point, as is Jon's post which preceded yours. Where Long and Halse are concerned though, allowing for each having possibly spent a couple of minutes on Goulston Street, it's strange (though not in any way suspicious) that their visits seem not to have overlapped at all.

[Bridewell]

Doesn't this seem odd everyone. The ripper is loose and the keystone coppers are goose-stepping in heavy boots.......


Greg

From a distance of 125 years, and from a Rippercentric viewpoint maybe, but the East End of London was a high crime area and day-to-day criminality didn't stop just because the police were also hunting what we would term a serial killer. Routine police patrols were as much about crime prevention as anything else.

[Michael W Richards]

Doesn't this seem odd everyone. The ripper is loose and the keystone coppers are goose-stepping in heavy boots.......


Greg

I dont think it was only policeman who tramped about in leather soled shoes either Greg....the ones that didnt adopt the idea of attaching the rubber of course.

Kate Eddowes was wearing mens lace up boots, granted she wouldnt make the same sound due to her size, but boots on cobblestones, unless they have thin heels, make roughly the same sound I would imagine, ....the size of the wearer being the key to the weight and volume of the sound.

Wouldnt any man, roughly the same height and weight as a constable, make about the same sound if he wore heavy soled boots? And walking the same environment as well of course....in terms of echo potential. I would expect that the tramp of boots would sound different in Mitre Square than they would out on Commercial.

Cheers

[The Good Michael]

Wouldnt any man, roughly the same height and weight as a constable, make about the same sound if he wore heavy soled boots? And walking the same environment as well of course....in terms of echo potential. I would expect that the tramp of boots would sound different in Mitre Square than they would out on Commercial.

This brings up something that I have no thread for and neither do I think it's worthy of a thread. Realizing that the beats were fairly constant though often reversed, and making the assumption that many policeman had some military or military-like training, I would expect the cadence of a beat-walker to be unbroken and consistent, maybe even between officers. If this assumption is correct, how difficult would it have really been to figure out a man's beat pattern if one wanted to? If our killer(s) was a man who had been involved in crime much of his life, it would have taken no effort to avoid the regular cops.

Mike

[GregBaron]

Boots are made for walking....

Good comments all,

The whole boot clomping idea is rather curious. I've seen some old movies where the stomp is like a metronome.

The types of footwear and sound on cobblestones of various people of different occupations is a good minutia question...not to mention the frequent rain and how that might have modified the sound....

In the poorly lighted alley-filled maze that was Whitechapel, I would imagine approaching footsteps was the main indicator of company coming....that is if they weren't wearing rubber galoshes......voices also ...carriages and cart wheels would have also had a unique sound...

Hmmm, I wonder if the killer heard the cart echoing down Bucks Row before Cross came into view.......?


Greg

[The Good Michael]

Hmmm, I wonder if the killer heard the cart echoing down Bucks Row before Cross came into view.......?

I would say yes to that, but there were probably other carts and he would have had no way of knowing their ultimate destinations.

Mike

[moonbegger]

Hmmm, I wonder if the killer heard the cart echoing down Bucks Row before Cross came into view.......?

Hello Greg & Mike , What cart would that be then ???? Have I missed something ?

confused .. Unless you mean deimshutz cart in Berner street .

moonbegger

[GregBaron]

Cobblestone carman...

Hi moonbeggar,

Cross was what they called a carman. I believe he delivered goods via a cart which I think he would keep in his possession. I remember discussions of this nature but I'd have to go hunting for the link....my impression was that he was pushing his car(t) to work.....not sure what it might look like but I would guess something like what we might call a wheelbarrow.....

I'm sure others know more about this..



Greg

[moonbegger]

Hello Greg ,

Cross ( Lechmere ) was walking to work that morning along the north pavement of Bucks row with nothing in his possession but bad luck , He had no cart . He was on his way to Liverpool street where he worked for Pickfords as a carman . He certainly did not have a barrow with him .

cheers

moonbegger

[Bridewell]

Carmen

My understanding is that a carman used a cart pulled by a horse. He was the equivalent of the modern-day delivery-van driver. One of the Buckle Street Butchers* was a Distiller's Carman in later life, and I can't imagine that a wheelbarrow of any description would have been adequate for the work.

*May do a Rip article on them at some point.

[Cogidubnus]

Cross was an employee, not a subcontractor...he worked for Pickfords, who in turn were publicly available for hire or reward. They were already a substantial haulage firm with exclusive contracts tied to several really substantial railway companies...this is a matter of public record and company history.

The notion that his cart would be like a wheelbarrow and wheeled from home to work is, I'm afraid, nothing short of risible...

Sorry!

Dave

[Wickerman]

But we do have many reports from people who were there at the time indicating as much .. are they all a fallacy ?

PC Neil .. From 60 yards ..

One of many newspaper quotes regarding the heavy military style tread of the London Bobby , that everyone seemed to be aware of ..


cheers

moonbegger

You appear to have missed the point I made that the police always, even prior to Warren, wore the same footwear.
The fault was not due to Warren.

You may be amused to read:

Citizen Police with Noiseless Boots.

Under the supervision of the local vigilance committee, upwards of a score of citizen detectives went out on duty at twelve o'clock last night. The locality is divided into "beats," and by pre-arrangement those who have undertaken the assistance of the regular police meet periodically at central points during the night to report themselves. Noiseless boots, as from time to time suggested for the force, have been provided for the amateur policemen.
Star, Oct. 4, 1888.