Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Juwes versus Iwmes

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Juwes versus Iwmes

    I listened to a podcast called the "House of Mystery" which had an interview with Tom Wescott. In it he claimed that the police officers who wrote down the word "Juwes" were possibly mistaken and that it could have been "Iwmes" standing for International Working Men's Educational Society. Tom Wescott concludes that it looks "exactly" like juwes if you write it out in cursive. I write in cursive all the time and I personally can't see any correlation between the two words.
    It's Tom wescott's opinion that it was written by JTR and that as it was white chalk against black it was easy to see by residents who did not see it until later. What are people's opinions on this argument?

  • #2
    Originally posted by MrTwibbs View Post
    It's Tom wescott's opinion that it was written by JTR and that as it was white chalk against black it was easy to see by residents who did not see it until later. What are people's opinions on this argument?
    Tom Wescott’s accomplishments notwithstanding, my opinion of the argument is pretty low.
    Different police officers, who read and wrote the cursive of the day every day, saw the writing and they all read it as a variant spelling of Jews.

    The idea that we, who’ve never seen the graffito, could read it better than they could, is dead in the water.

    Incidentally, I believe also that abbreviations like IWMES would be capitalized by Victorians and that it, to a Victorian, would make no sense to capitalize only the first letter.

    Comment


    • #3
      I like to believe that the Victorian police, as inept as they are portrayed, would be able to make the link between that nights murder location and "IWMES" scrawled on a wall. Especially given that they took it as a serious clue at the time.

      To be fair, Tom's idea at least makes sense, and for once doesn't rely on cryptic interpretation or archane Freemasonry so it's a thumbs up from me.
      I'm not going to link to it, or such....

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MrTwibbs View Post
        I listened to a podcast called the "House of Mystery" which had an interview with Tom Wescott. In it he claimed that the police officers who wrote down the word "Juwes" were possibly mistaken and that it could have been "Iwmes" standing for International Working Men's Educational Society. Tom Wescott concludes that it looks "exactly" like juwes if you write it out in cursive. I write in cursive all the time and I personally can't see any correlation between the two words.
        It's Tom wescott's opinion that it was written by JTR and that as it was white chalk against black it was easy to see by residents who did not see it until later. What are people's opinions on this argument?

        I recall that this same suggestion was made by someone posting as Inaki Kamiruaga back in 2005. (I'm getting old).

        There was considerable debate whether the club was ever known by the name of The International Men's Educational Society, outside one or two references in the press.

        Here's the link in case you want to relive it.


        https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/18579.html

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post


          I recall that this same suggestion was made by someone posting as Inaki Kamiruaga back in 2005. (I'm getting old).

          There was considerable debate whether the club was ever known by the name of The International Men's Educational Society, outside one or two references in the press.

          Here's the link in case you want to relive it.


          https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/18579.html
          Extremely impressed with your powers of recall.

          I remember a number of GSG threads which centred around the word Juwes, it's spelling, who wrote it, what it might mean and the word's significance. But Inaki's thread was new to me. I think he made some excellent points about how handwriting might be interpreted. While the IWES interpretation may or may not be correct, I think it entirely plausible, if not likely, the word was not Juwes. Given the different spellings used by the police, I think we can infer the handwriting was not entirely clear. Without being able to see the message, however, we can only speculate at the possibilities.

          I personally believe it was most likely a name of a group or gang or some such (so IWES is a possibility for me on that count but since only the first letter is capitalised I would think it is not an abbreviation). If it is a gang/group name, then it would suggest it was not a message from JTR, unless it really was a reference to the club at the site of Stride's murder.
          Last edited by etenguy; 07-16-2020, 09:22 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Let's face it, we could have high resolution, full colour full spectrum photographs of the graffiti, we'd still be arguing about what it "really" said.

            I do so wish they'd photographed it though.
            I'm not going to link to it, or such....

            Comment


            • #7
              International Working Men's Educational Society had exactly that on the building's sign.

              Gareth W unregistered guest
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MrTwibbs View Post
                I listened to a podcast called the "House of Mystery" which had an interview with Tom Wescott. In it he claimed that the police officers who wrote down the word "Juwes" were possibly mistaken and that it could have been "Iwmes" standing for International Working Men's Educational Society. Tom Wescott concludes that it looks "exactly" like juwes if you write it out in cursive. I write in cursive all the time and I personally can't see any correlation between the two words.
                It's Tom wescott's opinion that it was written by JTR and that as it was white chalk against black it was easy to see by residents who did not see it until later. What are people's opinions on this argument?
                Personally I wouldn't have much problem with that, if true. I think the message was to point a finger at the club for at least one killing that night. The fact that the apron section is below it on the ground to me suggests a signature for the message. Whether its Jews, Juewes, Juwes or Jewes… or the club itself, the context would be the same. Maybe not anti-Semitic though...maybe a political objection to socialist jews or that club, or one or more of its members?

                The thing about what I just wrote is that local policeman had a low opinion of that club and its members, and a local policeman was in Mitre Square before that apron section was found. He also came to Goulston St. Just sayin. For consideration.
                Michael Richards

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MrTwibbs View Post
                  I listened to a podcast called the "House of Mystery" which had an interview with Tom Wescott. In it he claimed that the police officers who wrote down the word "Juwes" were possibly mistaken and that it could have been "Iwmes" standing for International Working Men's Educational Society. Tom Wescott concludes that it looks "exactly" like juwes if you write it out in cursive. I write in cursive all the time and I personally can't see any correlation between the two words.
                  It's Tom wescott's opinion that it was written by JTR and that as it was white chalk against black it was easy to see by residents who did not see it until later. What are people's opinions on this argument?
                  it has about as much validity as it being judges or jutes lol. which is slim to none. as someone mentioned, many police saw it and made note of it.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DJA View Post
                    International Working Men's Educational Society had exactly that on the building's sign.

                    Yes, I think you're right; a couple of doubters suggested the sketch was inaccurate, but I don't think they have much of a leg to stand on.

                    In August 1887 the Pall Mall Gazette reported an identical placard over the inner door of an Anarchist club, the 'Day-Dawn Club,' at No. 23 Cable Street.


                    Click image for larger version

Name:	10 Aug 1887 PMG.JPG
Views:	104
Size:	71.0 KB
ID:	737602

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      In cursive scripts,capital J and Y both loop below the line.

                      Some very old ones also had G loop below the line.

                      I does not and never has.

                      Juwes,an old Frisian word for Jews, implies a dig at Old Jewry as the police had let Eddowes/nothing out of jail.

                      The police were never going to arrest Sutton and Abberline was to make sure of that.
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        On the other hand ..... Iw'ses ,does make sense , if what looks like a u after the w is an unclosed s.
                        Last edited by DJA; 07-17-2020, 07:57 PM.
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DJA View Post
                          In cursive scripts,capital J and Y both loop below the line.

                          Some very old ones also had G loop below the line.

                          I does not and never has.
                          Not below the line maybe, but still easily confused with a J - for example I

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                            it has about as much validity as it being judges or jutes lol. which is slim to none. as someone mentioned, many police saw it and made note of it.
                            Hi Abby - what is interesting is that the police interpreted the spelling differently - which suggests to me the handwriting was not entirely clear to them, which in turn undermines certainty that word was spelt Juwes. Without the photograph that never was, it is hard to take a view with confidence.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post


                              Yes, I think you're right; a couple of doubters suggested the sketch was inaccurate, but I don't think they have much of a leg to stand on.

                              In August 1887 the Pall Mall Gazette reported an identical placard over the inner door of an Anarchist club, the 'Day-Dawn Club,' at No. 23 Cable Street.


                              Click image for larger version  Name:	10 Aug 1887 PMG.JPG Views:	0 Size:	71.0 KB ID:	737602
                              I think that's a great indicator of how these clubs were perceived too rj. The description is bleak and dangerous and the praise for Anarchists around the large placard is telling. When assessing the murder in Berner it seems that the evidence as we know it suggests someone already on the grounds of the club. Someone there when Liz came into the passageway. Your clipping shows that some people thought it dangerous around these clubs. Because some dangerous men attended them. Its why William Morris informed Wess in a letter that he was uncomfortable speaking in support of the club and its values, because he sought purely Socialist goals without anarchistic actions. He was cautious about aligning himself with these clubs.
                              Last edited by Michael W Richards; 07-18-2020, 10:34 AM.
                              Michael Richards

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X