Did Halse do it ?

[Monty]

Hello Hunter ,

Yes it would appear so !

Daily News 3rd Oct

Echo 2nd oct

"Some time ago" and a "short time ago" ? I did think i read somewhere that she was ID in the Square due to her clothing! Looks like i may have misread myself .. So we know one of the officers was PC Robinson , but who was the other ?

And if it seems unlikely that it was Halse himself who threw it all together .. Is there another candidate ? Who was the other PC with Robinson who was present at the time of the "Nothing" comment ? And who else would have had both opportunity and desire to cause such a kerfuffle between the two forces ?

The Hat stand is still standing , we may just need a new hat

cheers

moonbegger .

PC George Simmons.

Monty

[Bridewell]

Suspected Persons

Im suspicious of the fact that Halse, Marriott and Outram were "searching" nearby streets that night....for what? The latest East End killing at that time was 3 weeks earlier, there were no immediate threats that required their attentions, that we are aware of. And there had never been any indication that the killer might act within the city limits.

Just happened to be nearby....hmm.

There are so many policemen near Mitre Square when Kate is killed one might wonder why none of them were viable witnesses to anything about that crime that night. No cop saw Kate alive after her release from Bishopsgate, and no-one saw a man leave the square or area quickly.

Hi Michael,

The wording of McWilliams' report dated 27th October 1888 does indeed include a reference to 'searching' by these three officers:

"Detective Constables Halse, Marriott & Outram who had been searching the passages of houses in the immediate neighbourhood of the spot where the murder was committed (& where the doors are left open all night) on hearing of the murder at 1.55am, at once started off in various directions to look for suspected persons".

'Suspected person' was a particular category under the 1824 Vagrancy Act which alluded to 'idle & disorderly person', 'suspected person' or 'reputed thief' and (eventually - the worst category) 'rogue & vagabond':

"Persons committing certain offences to be deemed rogues and vagabonds.

Every person committing any of the offences herein-before mentioned, after having been convicted as an idle and disorderly person; every person pretending or professing to tell fortunes, or using any subtle craft, means, or device, by palmistry or otherwise, to deceive and impose on any of his Majesty’s subjects; every person wandering abroad and lodging in any barn or outhouse, or in any deserted or unoccupied building, or in the open air, or under a tent, or in any cart or waggon, not having any visible means of subsistence] and not giving a good account of himself or herself; every person wilfully exposing to view, in any street, road, highway, or public place, any obscene print, picture, or other indecent exhibition]; every person wilfully openly, lewdly, and obscenely exposing his person in any street, road, or public highway, or in the view thereof, or in any place of public resort, with intent to insult any female; every person wandering abroad, and endeavouring by the exposure of wounds or deformities to obtain or gather alms; every person going about as a gatherer or collector of alms, or endeavouring to procure charitable contributions of any nature or kind, under any false or fraudulent pretence; every person being found in or upon any dwelling house, warehouse, coach-house, stable, or outhouse, or in any inclosed yard, garden, or area, for any unlawful purpose; every suspected person or reputed thief, frequenting any river, canal, or navigable stream, dock, or basin, or any quay, wharf, or warehouse near or adjoining thereto, or any street, highway, or avenue leading thereto, or any place of public resort, or any avenue leading thereto, or any street, or any highway or any place adjacent to a street or highway;] with intent to commit an arrestable offence; and every person apprehended as an idle and disorderly person, and violently resisting any constable, or other peace officer so apprehending him or her, and being subsequently convicted of the offence for which he or she shall have been so apprehended; shall be deemed a rogue and vagabond, within the true intent and meaning of this Act;and , subject to section 70 of The Criminal Justice Act 1982,] it shall be lawful for any justice of the peace to commit such offender (being thereof convicted before him by the confession of such offender, or by the evidence on oath of one or more credible witness or witnesses,) to the house of correction, for any time not exceeding three calendar months".

For the practical application of this which became known (through abuse in some quarters) as the 'sus law' a 'suspected person' was someone who was acting suspiciously and a 'reputed thief' was someone with known convictions for dishonesty.

Why detectives would be occupied in the small hours of the morning with searching for offenders contravening the Vagrancy Act is anybody's guess, but that's what McWilliams' report suggests to me.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

Im suspicious of the fact that Halse, Marriott and Outram were "searching" nearby streets that night....for what? The latest East End killing at that time was 3 weeks earlier, there were no immediate threats that required their attentions, that we are aware of. And there had never been any indication that the killer might act within the city limits.

Just happened to be nearby....hmm.

There are so many policemen near Mitre Square when Kate is killed one might wonder why none of them were viable witnesses to anything about that crime that night. No cop saw Kate alive after her release from Bishopsgate, and no-one saw a man leave the square or area quickly.

[moonbegger]

The police did not know that the victim was the woman who had been at the Bishopgate nick for quite some time after the murder. She wasn't even identified until Tuesday.

Hello Hunter ,

Yes it would appear so !

Daily News 3rd Oct

Some information furnished by two City police constables to their superior officers yesterday morning supplied what is at present the only clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre-square. The policemen, having seen the mutilated body at the mortuary in Golden-lane, expressed the opinion that it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago when under the influence of drink.

Echo 2nd oct

A reporter, writing at two o'clock, said: - Some information has just come to light in connection with the woman murdered in Mitre-square, to which the authorities attach considerable value. It appears that two City police-constables, who have seen the body, believe that it is that of a woman whom they had in custody some time ago on a charge of drunkenness. This woman, when charged, lived at a lodging-house in the neighbourhood of Fashion-street, Whitechapel, and the police are now making inquiries in that district as to whether such a person has been there recently. The constables, however, while being of opinion that the woman found in Mitre-square is the same as the one they had in custody, are not quite positive. The police are, therefore, endeavouring to discover whether the woman who was in custody is now alive, and if such is the case the particular incident so far will of course end.

"Some time ago" and a "short time ago" ? I did think i read somewhere that she was ID in the Square due to her clothing! Looks like i may have misread myself .. So we know one of the officers was PC Robinson , but who was the other ?

And if it seems unlikely that it was Halse himself who threw it all together .. Is there another candidate ? Who was the other PC with Robinson who was present at the time of the "Nothing" comment ? And who else would have had both opportunity and desire to cause such a kerfuffle between the two forces ?

The Hat stand is still standing , we may just need a new hat

cheers

moonbegger .

[Bridewell]

The GSG

Is there any evidence that he did not

Hello Bridewell , Robert .

I think you may have both misread my post . I make no claim that Halse was indeed the killer ..



This is just about the GSG and Apron and the likelihood they had nothing to do with the murders . Apologies if i was less than clear about this .

cheers

moonbegger

Hi MB,

I had indeed misread your post. For that my apologies, but my answer to the correct question is the same: Did Halse do it (write the GSG)? No.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Robert]

Hi Moonbegger

Yes, as far as the GSG goes, he'd only have needed a sonic screwdriver for that.

[moonbegger]

Halse could have done it if he had a twelve-dimensional space-time transducer.

Is there any evidence that he did not

Hello Bridewell , Robert .

I think you may have both misread my post . I make no claim that Halse was indeed the killer ..

This would clearly point a finger at someone who was present at the Bishopsgate police station at the time Eddows replied " Nothing" to Constable Robinson .. All of a sudden it becomes less Killer related , and more of a ( one upmanship ) battle between two rival police forces !

This is just about the GSG and Apron and the likelihood they had nothing to do with the murders . Apologies if i was less than clear about this .

cheers

moonbegger

[Robert]

Halse could have done it if he had a twelve-dimensional space-time transducer.

[Bridewell]

Halse?

As for Dc Halse himself, he was the one officer who was firmly of the opinion that the GSG should be preserved until such time as the content had been photographed. That's the view I would expect from an experienced investigator, but not from someone who had written the GSG himself. By his own account, at about 2 minutes to 2am, Halse, with Marriott & Outram, was "at the corner of Houndsditch by Aldgate Church" when he learned of the murder and went, with his two detective colleagues, to Mitre Square. From there the three officers spread out in different directions, with Halse heading towards Spitalfields. For Halse to be the killer, he would have to leave Mitre Square just before the body was found (1.44am perhaps?), leave his Force area to walk (or run) to Goulston Street, deposit the apron piece, write the graffito (perhaps), clean himself up and walk/run to Houndsditch in time to meet up with his colleagues without them suspecting anything untoward - not out of breath, not flustered, not smeared with blood, not smelling of faeces - nothing.

Did Halse do it? No.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

The Harrison Quote

Just for the record, whilst I did post the extract from Paul Harrison's book, and found the possible explanation interesting, I don't think it's a likely scenario. The police service has its fair share of wind-up merchants and I suspect that someone may have been pulling Harrison's leg. Quite apart from anything else, if 'Jewes' had ever been a Met nickname for the City Police, I would imagine that Don Rumbelow, as an ex-City man, would know of it.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Hunter]

I think he would have been made aware of the particulars , if not at the station , definitely around the lifeless remains of Eddows , once they suspect that she is the same woman just freed from Bishopsgate police station .

The police did not know that the victim was the woman who had been at the Bishopgate nick for quite some time after the murder. She wasn't even identified until Tuesday.

[Monty]

Monty ,

But would Halse have not been bought up to speed by his colleagues in regards to the drunk in cell # who gave her name as "Nothing" especially after they find her ripped up in Mitre Sq ?

I think he would have been made aware of the particulars , if not at the station , definitely around the lifeless remains of Eddows , once they suspect that she is the same woman just freed from Bishopsgate police station .



But it was 8.45pm before she got to Bishopsgate and replied "Nothing". Just an hour .. Fresh enough to be an entertaining conversation for folk getting ready for duty !

moonbegger .

Why would Uniform update CID of a drunk in the cells of Bishopsgate nick? Especially, when you consider the probability, Eddowes wasn't the only drunk locked up that night?

One of a fair few that week.

Monty

[moonbegger]

Monty ,

But would Halse have not been bought up to speed by his colleagues in regards to the drunk in cell # who gave her name as "Nothing" especially after they find her ripped up in Mitre Sq ?

I think he would have been made aware of the particulars , if not at the station , definitely around the lifeless remains of Eddows , once they suspect that she is the same woman just freed from Bishopsgate police station .

Eddowes was arrested at around 8.30pm, an hour and 15 minutes before change over. In other words she was banged up in the cells in the yard by the time Halse went on duty.

But it was 8.45pm before she got to Bishopsgate and replied "Nothing". Just an hour .. Fresh enough to be an entertaining conversation for folk getting ready for duty !

moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. If you are thinking along the lines of "Halse killed Kate," you might need a good answer to the question, "Where were Outram and Marriott when it happened?"

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn ,

No not at all .. more of a ( one upmanship ) battle between two rival police forces regarding the GSG !

moonbegger .

[Monty]

Hello Monty ,



How do you know this ?

moonbegger

Well firstly she wasn't charged. My error, apologies.

Secondly Eddowes was arrested at around 8.30pm, an hour and 15 minutes before change over. In other words she was banged up in the cells in the yard by the time Halse went on duty.

Thirdly, DCs, nor any PC not involved in the arrest or processing, would be present.

And finally, Halse never stated he was, nor does Byfield, Robinson and Simmons....who all were.

Monty