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  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Hello Observer,

    As for the above;

    1. If you wish to assume that all contradictory times can be explained by assuming that at least 50% of the witnesses were simply incorrect with their estimates, that's your call.

    2. At the Inquest Spooner said: "We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named." That puts him, with a slow gait, at the Beehive around 12:15-12:20. Add 20-25 minutes. Plus re-read what you posted..."I believe it was twenty-five minutes to one o'clock when I arrived in the yard."

    3. We know Liz Stride was alive at 12:35 when PC Smith saw her. He is the last witness to see her out and about, since its clear by the witnesses that at least 2 witnesses had views of the street, off and on for one, from 12:40ish until 1am. They didn't see or hear Israels Alledged Altercation. That leaves the immediate street "desolate" after 12:35.
    Estimates is the key word here I think. All the examples quoted are of times ending in either '0' or '5'. That's consistent with witnesses rounding their time estimates to the nearest minute divisible by five.
    "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
      Estimates is the key word here I think. All the examples quoted are of times ending in either '0' or '5'. That's consistent with witnesses rounding their time estimates to the nearest minute divisible by five.
      Pc Watkins stated it was 1.44am when he found Catherone Eddowes

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
        if that's the case what happened to stride? did she vanish in thin air too?
        No, she was in the passageway that she was killed in. Once she stepped in there she would be unseen by anyone at their door on Berner Street. She would not have been invisible to anyone else in the passageway...and by the statements if Lave was accurate, she would have had to pass by him....If Eagle was accurate, she would have had to be there when he entered the yard, and if Issac Kozebrodksi, Heschberg and other member Gillen was accurate, she was lying in the passageway bleeding out.

        Heres some logic for you, although logic doesn't go over so good here ...but Liz Stride is in her "good evening wear" that she sought to remove lint from when she left the lodginghouse, she has a recently purchased flower arrangement on her jacket, and breath fresheners in her hand. She has also been working steadily in the weeks leading up to the murder "among the Jews".

        Now she is in the passageway owned by local Jews,... who were considered anarchists by the police as a side point....within 1 hour of the clubs meeting ending that night. Some 200 people attended. Think the club might need cleaning? Or, do you think its possible that while working "among the Jews" that she found one that she wanted to date...someone who would have been at the club that night? Presumably Eagle would have been paid for his speaking engagement when he left the club to escort his date home, so why did he return? And why didnt he see Liz or anyone else......its the medical statements that seem to indicate she was cut either within an hour of 1:30am as per Phillips, or sometime 20 or 30 minutes by Blackwell, prior to his arrival at 1:16. That in and of itself indicates its most probable that when she was off the street in that alleyway after she was last seen.

        She was clearly not killed by a serial Ripper, that's for certain, so someone killed her for some other reason than mere madness.
        Last edited by Michael W Richards; 08-09-2017, 08:50 AM.
        Michael Richards

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
          No, she was in the passageway that she was killed in. Once she stepped in there she would be unseen by anyone at their door on Berner Street. She would not have been invisible to anyone else in the passageway...and by the statements if Lave was accurate, she would have had to pass by him....If Eagle was accurate, she would have had to be there when he entered the yard, and if Issac Kozebrodksi, Heschberg and other member Gillen was accurate, she was lying in the passageway bleeding out.

          Heres some logic for you, although logic doesn't go over so good here ...but Liz Stride is in her "good evening wear" that she sought to remove lint from when she left the lodginghouse, she has a recently purchased flower arrangement on her jacket, and breath fresheners in her hand. She has also been working steadily in the weeks leading up to the murder "among the Jews".

          Now she is in the passageway owned by local Jews,... who were considered anarchists by the police as a side point....within 1 hour of the clubs meeting ending that night. Some 200 people attended. Think the club might need cleaning? Or, do you think its possible that while working "among the Jews" that she found one that she wanted to date...someone who would have been at the club that night?

          She was clearly not killed by a serial Ripper, that's for certain, so someone killed her for some other reason than mere madness.
          Hi Michael
          Thanks for clarifying.

          I think she was all gussyed up because after having broken up with her boyfriend she was out to have some fun... maybe find a new boyfriend/sugar daddy.

          I think she thought she might have found him in peaked cap man-the man that marshall, PC smith and Schwartz saw. and Lawende for that matter. Unfortunately for her it was the ripper.

          but since she was NOT actively prostituting she was hesitant to accompany peaked cap man to secluded spot for said purposes. Who then got pissed since after spending considerable time (and money?) on her lost his temper and cut her throat in a fit of frustrated anger.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
            No, she was in the passageway that she was killed in. Once she stepped in there she would be unseen by anyone at their door on Berner Street. She would not have been invisible to anyone else in the passageway...and by the statements if Lave was accurate, she would have had to pass by him....If Eagle was accurate, she would have had to be there when he entered the yard, and if Issac Kozebrodksi, Heschberg and other member Gillen was accurate, she was lying in the passageway bleeding out.

            Heres some logic for you, although logic doesn't go over so good here ...but Liz Stride is in her "good evening wear" that she sought to remove lint from when she left the lodginghouse, she has a recently purchased flower arrangement on her jacket, and breath fresheners in her hand. She has also been working steadily in the weeks leading up to the murder "among the Jews".

            Now she is in the passageway owned by local Jews,... who were considered anarchists by the police as a side point....within 1 hour of the clubs meeting ending that night. Some 200 people attended. Think the club might need cleaning? Or, do you think its possible that while working "among the Jews" that she found one that she wanted to date...someone who would have been at the club that night? Presumably Eagle would have been paid for his speaking engagement when he left the club to escort his date home, so why did he return? And why didnt he see Liz or anyone else......its the medical statements that seem to indicate she was cut either within an hour of 1:30am as per Phillips, or sometime 20 or 30 minutes by Blackwell, prior to his arrival at 1:16. That in and of itself indicates its most probable that when she was off the street in that alleyway after she was last seen.

            She was clearly not killed by a serial Ripper, that's for certain, so someone killed her for some other reason than mere madness.
            Stride' s killer was never found. We therefore cannot be at all certain that she wasn't killed by "JtR."

            Comment


            • Manchester Guardian, Oct 13:

              It is stated that the police authorities attach a great deal of importance to the spelling of the word "Jews" in the writing on the wall at the spot where the Mitre Square murderer threw away a portion of the murdered woman's apron. The language of the Jews in the East End is a hybrid dialect, known as "Yiddish," and their mode of spelling the word Jews would be "Juwes." This, the police consider a strong indication that the crime was committed by one of the numerous foreigners by whom the East End is infested.
              Prolly some East European Anarchist who reads radical political literature, written in Yiddish.
              Any idea were those types hang out?

              The above quote is evidence that one of the police forces involved, took physical evidence seriously.
              The other couldn't even organize getting a couple of sniffer dogs to a major crime scene.
              Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 03-12-2020, 09:38 AM.
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • >> The language of the Jews in the East End is a hybrid dialect, known as "Yiddish," and their mode of spelling the word Jews would be "Juwes." <<

                Apart from the fact "Juwes" is not Yiddish for "Jews" in the first place, the Chief Rabbi at the time publicly denied the claim and was supported by the police, via Warren.

                Sadly this is just a piece of antisemitism that has apparently lingered on to the present day.



                dustymiller
                aka drstrange

                Comment


                • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                  >> The language of the Jews in the East End is a hybrid dialect, known as "Yiddish," and their mode of spelling the word Jews would be "Juwes." <<

                  Apart from the fact "Juwes" is not Yiddish for "Jews" in the first place, the Chief Rabbi at the time publicly denied the claim and was supported by the police, via Warren.

                  Sadly this is just a piece of antisemitism that has apparently lingered on to the present day.


                  And that every other word was the English for, well, every other word was English. Obviously the work of those devious Jews, using our own language to throw us of the scent. Apart from 'Juwes' obviously, if that was spelled Jews, we'd be blaming innocent Cockneys.
                  Of course, we'd expect nothing less. They won't be blamed for nothing them Jews.
                  Them's the vagaries.

                  Comment


                  • 'those devious Jews'?

                    You mean, like the Jews that made up most of the membership of the Berner St club, who could themselves be considered to be antisemitic?
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                      Juwes &amp; Old Jewry

                      Hi P.C. (& Lynn),

                      I'm currently reading Paul Harrison's book, 'Jack the Ripper - The Mystery Solved'. I'm aware, from another thread, that Harrison researched the wrong Barnett & I've spotted a couple of other errors as well. However, there is one point which he makes which I found interesting. He claims that contacts within the Metropolitan Police have told him of resentment within the Met at being blamed for everything that was wrong in East London and at being compared unfavourably with the City Force:

                      "The message was nothing more than a jibe at the City Police. The word 'Juwes' should have been spelt 'Jewes' and was meant to refer to the nickname used by the majority of the Metropolitan Officers when referring to their City opponents. The nickname derives from the Old Jewry police headquarters of the City Police.
                      If the story is correct, a fact in which I have no reason to doubt, then it explains Superintendent Arnold and Sir Charles Warren's rival actions in removing the message".

                      Not a theory I have encountered before. Plausible or not?

                      (Lights blue touchpaper and retires).

                      Regards, Bridewell.
                      Thats not bad. Food for thought.
                      Michael Richards

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by John G View Post

                        Stride' s killer was never found. We therefore cannot be at all certain that she wasn't killed by "JtR."
                        We can be sure she wasn't killed by someone who left any indication he was intent on pm mutilation, one of the foundations for the belief in a Ripper in the first place.
                        Michael Richards

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post

                          Estimates is the key word here I think. All the examples quoted are of times ending in either '0' or '5'. That's consistent with witnesses rounding their time estimates to the nearest minute divisible by five.
                          That's fine, and we have 4 witnesses within that 5 minute frame then...at 12:40-12:45. Then we have a street view from 12:50 until 1am.
                          Michael Richards

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                            Hi Michael
                            Thanks for clarifying.

                            I think she was all gussyed up because after having broken up with her boyfriend she was out to have some fun... maybe find a new boyfriend/sugar daddy.

                            I think she thought she might have found him in peaked cap man-the man that marshall, PC smith and Schwartz saw. and Lawende for that matter. Unfortunately for her it was the ripper.

                            but since she was NOT actively prostituting she was hesitant to accompany peaked cap man to secluded spot for said purposes. Who then got pissed since after spending considerable time (and money?) on her lost his temper and cut her throat in a fit of frustrated anger.
                            Truth be told, I have wondered aloud about whether Eagle might have been that new beau. He had a date, took her home, and came back to the club..as things were likely winding down.
                            Michael Richards

                            Comment


                            • Has anyone been interested that ONLY on the night of the Double Event do we have Jewish immigrants known to be on a murder site just before the murder is discovered? And ONLY on this night did investigators of the murder(s) find some wall graffiti that referenced Jews adjacent to physical evidence from a murder scene?
                              Michael Richards

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                                Has anyone been interested that ONLY on the night of the Double Event do we have Jewish immigrants known to be on a murder site just before the murder is discovered? And ONLY on this night did investigators of the murder(s) find some wall graffiti that referenced Jews adjacent to physical evidence from a murder scene?
                                The Double Event has Immigrant Jews with a murder on their property, Immigrant Jews as witnesses to a second murder victims encounter, and a message suggest blaming Jews in some fashion would not be "for nothing". Figure out how that fits together and you've likely solved one or more of these 2 murders. Not by Suspect....as everyone just loves to focus on,..but by motive. Which then leads to Suspects.
                                Michael Richards

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