The word JUWES

[Harry D]

Hello Harry D.
Saying Jack the Ripper did write the graffito, do you think it was originally intended for the side of the IWMEC, taking into consideration he may have been interrupted during her murder (Schwartz, Diemschutz)?

Does anybody know who would have "rowed" with the IWME club? The lady says she thought there was going to be another row at the club.

Hello, Robert St Devil.

Your guess is as good as mine. Problem is we're trying to decipher an 127 year old message that was potentially written by a madman. If he did stop to chalk the graffiti, we have no idea how his mind worked and what self-justifications this particular serial killer used for his crimes.

[David Orsam]

You are writing something here which I think is more important than you and many others perhaps realize.

I believe the only reason for leaving the piece of apron in this spot was to get the police to read his message.

In case you are unaware Pierre, that is not a new or very original thought. What no-one knows is what the message actually meant. Do you? And if so, perhaps you would care to share with the rest of the forum.

[Pierre]

Important

[QUOTE=RivkahChaya;236386]

But the GSG was new, odd, and cryptic. Still, it was cryptic enough that without the apron, I don't think anyone would have paid it much attention. It was only when it got paired with the apron, and considering the fact that it was sort of a Rorschach-- it could be anti-Semitic if that's what you were inclined to see-- it was riot-worthy.

Hi RivkahChaya

You are writing something here which I think is more important than you and many others perhaps realize.

I believe the only reason for leaving the piece of apron in this spot was to get the police to read his message.

Regards Pierre

[RockySullivan]

Hi Errata
I know I would be offended if someone wrote I was a Kristian. or said Merry Kristmass.

What reasonable person wouldn't be offended being called a christian?

[c.d.]

Hello Curious,

Yes, and add Martha Tabram to your list as well. As you point out this was "another" murder not the first murder in the series. And when you add Eddowes on the same night it is hard to see how the club would get singled out by way of a connection simply by virtue of the fact that the murder took place on their property.

c.d.

[curious4]

I think the perception of differences might have been absent c4, in the same way refugees from a terrorist state today might be seen by some as complicit with terrorist ideals. Which of course is nothing but prejudice.

The point I am trying to make about the club is that they were perceived as an anarchist club before Liz Strides murder, and as such, would be suspected by people who paint ethnicities with a negative broad brush. Some of those were in the police force...remember it was Socialists who were involved in the riot in Trafalgar Square the previous year.

What this means is that the murder on their property would cause intense scrutiny of the club and its members had this not been a Fall when women were being killed by someone unknown. I believe the club may have relied on this climate of fear to direct scrutiny from the club and its members, by using language like "another" murder when seeking help. I also believe that Israel Schwartz might have been convinced to offer a story that has the victim being attacked offsite....perhaps even by a gentile.

Cheers

Hello Michael

No, sorry, can't agree. It sounds as though the club was under a good deal of scrutiny as it was. I believe Schwartz, what's more to the point, so did Swanson. And how would finding a body on the premises avert attention from the club? If that was the intention, it didn't work. And surely, finding a woman on the ground with her throat cut would make anyone think that this was "another" murder -after Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman.

Best wishes
C4

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael

Well, seeing your wife attacked by the police would bring out the caveman in any red-blooded male. Not surprising that the clubs came out! Nor Mrs D's soft broom for that matter!

As for anarchists, at first sight the idea of everyone governing themselves does sound appealing. However like many isms it relies on people being benevolent and sadly this is not the case. Perhaps there were some anarchists among club members, but at the time there was not a great deal of difference between the ideas held by anarchists and those held by socialists.

Best wishes
C4

I think the perception of differences might have been absent c4, in the same way refugees from a terrorist state today might be seen by some as complicit with terrorist ideals. Which of course is nothing but prejudice.

The point I am trying to make about the club is that they were perceived as an anarchist club before Liz Strides murder, and as such, would be suspected by people who paint ethnicities with a negative broad brush. Some of those were in the police force...remember it was Socialists who were involved in the riot in Trafalgar Square the previous year.

What this means is that the murder on their property would cause intense scrutiny of the club and its members had this not been a Fall when women were being killed by someone unknown. I believe the club may have relied on this climate of fear to direct scrutiny from the club and its members, by using language like "another" murder when seeking help. I also believe that Israel Schwartz might have been convinced to offer a story that has the victim being attacked offsite....perhaps even by a gentile.

Cheers

[curious4]

Hi Curious

The story was that Mrs Diemshitz was being assaulted and that's why Louis and Issac and others jumped in. And subsequently were arrested. Socialists were not all simply benign people fighting for fair wages and workplace safety as you know curious, there were also anarchists and activists in that population segment. Its a matter of record that the Berner Street club was referred to by the authorities as an "anarchist" club.

Cheers c4

Hello Michael

Well, seeing your wife attacked by the police would bring out the caveman in any red-blooded male. Not surprising that the clubs came out! Nor Mrs D's soft broom for that matter!

As for anarchists, at first sight the idea of everyone governing themselves does sound appealing. However like many isms it relies on people being benevolent and sadly this is not the case. Perhaps there were some anarchists among club members, but at the time there was not a great deal of difference between the ideas held by anarchists and those held by socialists.

Best wishes
C4

[Errata]

Hi Errata
I said INTENTIONALLY.

it reminds of how Churchill used to say Narzis or Bush used to pronounce Sadam and not sa-Dam. its kind of an insult and implies you don't even care enough about their feelings to get it right.


and the examples you used changes the sound of the word so much it does make it comical to the point of the jokes on the sayer, like you said.

woudnt it sting a bit if someone wrote Errata is a Juwe? I know I would be offended if someone wrote I was a Kristian. or said Merry Kristmass.

It wouldn't sting at all. I am part of a largely unknown other, and well meaning people get it wrong all the time. Not the name necessarily, because Jew really spells itself for the most part, but other things yes. I can't react to all of it, I'd go mad.

I was raised not unlike the Jews of the East End. Small tight community in a sea of other. Who didn't like us much, didn't respect us, thought we killed their messiah, made religious proclamations against us. It never occurs to me that someone misspells my religion as an insult. It does occur to me that they do it because they are a moron. Doing it repeatedly like the Saddam bit would be irritating, like repeatedly listening to Junior say "nucular" makes my teeth curl, but not insulting. Baffling would be a good word.

But this is a one time thing. It's not repeated over and over so you yell at your tv screen "How hard is it to get one stupid word right?". If he wanted to insult, insulting words were there for the taking. The same ones we have now and a few others that have dropped out of use. But instead he spells it like it's a two syllable word. Or a Dutch name. And even if he wrote it in flame on my doorstep, I would still be so disarmed by the spelling that I don't think I would take offense. At least until the plants caught on fire. Then I would get miffed.

Mispronouncing something only irritates in repetition. One time is just a weird error. So either he didn't know he had to do it a bunch in order to be insulting, or he genuinely had a tragic spelling accident. Or maybe his cursive was so terrible he meant to write "fates" but lost control of his swoops and curls. It kinda doesn't matter what he meant to say, it matters what he did say. It might be a menacing message, but it isn't an insulting one. It just isn't. That was never the worry.

[Michael W Richards]

Actually Michael I think they were defending themselves. Unless you think they strolled down to the nearest police station and set about beating them (Mrs D with her soft broom, of course). Socialists were very unpopular among certain classes who didn't want to pay decent wages or acknowledge that workers could be injured by things like lead and sulphur.

Discussions there certainly were but I would guess no more fierce than the debates on this forum. As for the singing, at least some of the neighbours seemed to enjoy listening to it.

Best wishes
C4

Hi Curious

The story was that Mrs Diemshitz was being assaulted and that's why Louis and Issac and others jumped in. And subsequently were arrested. Socialists were not all simply benign people fighting for fair wages and workplace safety as you know curious, there were also anarchists and activists in that population segment. Its a matter of record that the Berner Street club was referred to by the authorities as an "anarchist" club.

Cheers c4

[curious4]

The neighbors told police that often noise continued well past the end of Saturday night meetings and past 1am, and that the yard was occupied by "low men and women". That coupled with the fact that Dutfields Yard was the location where Diemshutz and his wife and other club members attacked London police with clubs in 1889, one might surmise that it could be a dangerous place with dangerous people. What allegedly spurred on the attack isn't really relevant, suffice to say that a predisposition towards violence to resolve conflicts is exposed.

Anyone can get their hands on a weapon of some kind easily when in conflict, but a much smaller number will actually make the choice to look for one to use.

Actually Michael I think they were defending themselves. Unless you think they strolled down to the nearest police station and set about beating them (Mrs D with her soft broom, of course). Socialists were very unpopular among certain classes who didn't want to pay decent wages or acknowledge that workers could be injured by things like lead and sulphur.

Discussions there certainly were but I would guess no more fierce than the debates on this forum. As for the singing, at least some of the neighbours seemed to enjoy listening to it.

Best wishes
C4

[Michael W Richards]

Didn't the members row with each other? It certainly had a local reputation of being a very argumentative and raucous sort of place. (I don't necessarily mean physical violence.)

The neighbors told police that often noise continued well past the end of Saturday night meetings and past 1am, and that the yard was occupied by "low men and women". That coupled with the fact that Dutfields Yard was the location where Diemshutz and his wife and other club members attacked London police with clubs in 1889, one might surmise that it could be a dangerous place with dangerous people. What allegedly spurred on the attack isn't really relevant, suffice to say that a predisposition towards violence to resolve conflicts is exposed.

Anyone can get their hands on a weapon of some kind easily when in conflict, but a much smaller number will actually make the choice to look for one to use.

[Abby Normal]

I hope not. If there is one thing that takes the sting out of a word it's using it improperly. At 15 I had to tell someone I was a kyke, not a kRyke, and I stopped him to tell my friends what he had just called me, and we laughed and laughed. To this day that doesn't hurt my feelings. And it genuinely might have had he pronounced it correctly.

Misspell something that badly and you might as well have written "hedgehogs" for the amount of desired effect you will get. Bunch of people with quizzical expressions, head tilted to one side, asking "does that say what I think it says?""why did he get it wrong?""HOW did he get it wrong? There not so much of it to get wrong." And then way down on the list is "How dare he!" Most people don't even make it that far down the list.

I mean, how offended are you going to get if someone calls you a flucking crunt? Sure they mean it, but you're too busy laughing.

Hi Errata
I said INTENTIONALLY.

it reminds of how Churchill used to say Narzis or Bush used to pronounce Sadam and not sa-Dam. its kind of an insult and implies you don't even care enough about their feelings to get it right.


and the examples you used changes the sound of the word so much it does make it comical to the point of the jokes on the sayer, like you said.

woudnt it sting a bit if someone wrote Errata is a Juwe? I know I would be offended if someone wrote I was a Kristian. or said Merry Kristmass.

[Rosella]

Didn't the members row with each other? It certainly had a local reputation of being a very argumentative and raucous sort of place. (I don't necessarily mean physical violence.)

[Robert St Devil]

Hey, Jeff.

Well that's the $64,000 question. Do you believe a piece of evidence would be left under graffiti by accident or design?

Hello Harry D.
Saying Jack the Ripper did write the graffito, do you think it was originally intended for the side of the IWMEC, taking into consideration he may have been interrupted during her murder (Schwartz, Diemschutz)?

Does anybody know who would have "rowed" with the IWME club? The lady says she thought there was going to be another row at the club.