The Halse version

[caz]

Hi Monty,

This is all fair and reasonable, but it doesn't actually tell us which is the more likely: the apron piece and/or writing in situ by 2.20 but just not noticed at that time by either Long or Halse; or not there to be noticed until after 2.20.

In short, the policemen are no help to us here and we have to fall back on personal speculation about what the killer would or would not have done after leaving Mitre Square with his goodies.

And that's where most of the assumin' comes in.

Hi Bridewell,

When I spoke about the killer dumping the apron 'as soon as possible', I naturally meant as soon as it had served its purpose, whatever that may have been. But there's the rub: if this was a substantial piece of cloth, then a) it was all the more risky to have it on his person for the few minutes it would have taken him to get to Goulston, and b) it would have taken mere seconds to wipe his knife and hands on it and toss it on the ground. Also, the bigger and bloodier it was, and the further afield he left it, the more of a clue it would be to his escape route.

The questions must therefore remain: why did he take these risks if he could so easily have avoided them? Was his purpose, or part of it, to leave a false clue about his escape route? And doesn't the fact that he took such risks, while carrying the murder weapon and body parts, undermine all the arguments in the world that he wouldn't have taken other similar risks, or lesser risks, if there were other purposes to be served? After all, what possible purpose do you imagine was served by taking a woman's kidney and uterus and mutilating her face and body? He was risking the hangman throughout.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

A thought just occured to me,
Long's beat was in Met Police Territory.
Stride's murder was approx one hour before Eddowes.
The Met Police had people hunting all over looking for Stride's killer.
Apparently, Long knew nothing about Eddowes' fate.
Did he know about Stride, before he found the apron piece?
Did Halse? Did Outram? Did Marriott? Did Watkins? Did any of the policemen involved in the Eddowes scenario know about Stride? Have we indication that any did? If so, when, for each individual?

Kindly

Phil

[Wickerman]

Hello all,

A thought just occured to me,
Long's beat was in Met Police Territory.
Stride's murder was approx one hour before Eddowes.
The Met Police had people hunting all over looking for Stride's killer.
Apparently, Long knew nothing about Eddowes' fate.
Did he know about Stride, before he found the apron piece?
Did Halse? Did Outram? Did Marriott? Did Watkins? Did any of the policemen involved in the Eddowes scenario know about Stride? Have we indication that any did? If so, when, for each individual?

Kindly

Phil

Hi Phil.
I recall PC Long saying that he had heard from another PC, about the murder (Stride?) before he found the apron.

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil Carter]

additional edit...

Should have read..
"..Long knew something about.." not "nothing"
(ie had "heard" about the murder in Mitre Square.
Who could possibly have told him?

Apologies for previous typing error

kindly

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello John,

posts crossed. My apologies. A PC isnt memtioned as the source is he?

Kindly

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jon,

I may be missing something here, but I believe Long was referring to Eddowes murder, not Strides?

" having searched I at once proceeded to the Station. Before proceeding there I had heard of a murder. I had heard of the murder in Mitre Square."

(written Coroners inquest testimony report, No,135, Corporation of London Records Office)

" . ..Before proceeding to the station he (Long) hadheard that a murder had been committed in Mitre Square."

(The Times, 13th Oct 1888, from The Ultimate Sourcebook, page 262)

Long makes no mention of the above in his own written report dated 6th November 1888, HO 144/201/A/C 49301C/8c ff195-196.

So Long heard only of the Mitre Square murder, and it is not said from whom. There is no mention of him being aware of the Berner Street murder.

Kindly

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jon, all,

In conjunction with the above postings, there is a further report of the inquest testimony of Long, as reported in The Daily Telegraph, Friday 12th October 1888. It reads as follows:-

Mr Crawford: Having examined the staircase, what did you next do?
Long: I proceeded to the station.
Mr Crawford: Before going, did you hear that a murder had been committed?
Long: Yes.
Mr Crawford: It is common knowledge that two murders have been perpetrated. Which did you hear of?
Long: I heard of the murder in the City. There were rumours of another, but not certain.

All very well- until later under questioning from a juror about his actions following his examination of the apron and the writing, - Long says the following (from the same article):-

Long: I thought the was the best thing to do was to proceed to the station and report to the inspector on duty.
Juror: I am sure you did what you deemed best.
Mr Crawford: I suppose you thought it more likely to find the body there than the murderer?
Long: Yes, and I felt that the inspector would be better able to deal with the matter than I was.


Hang on a minute... In replying "Yes" to Crawford on the last point, Long has said something strange. Having previously said he had heard of the "City" murder and that there were only "rumours" of "another, but not certain"... What "body" would Long have been looking for? Not the one in the City, thats for certain, and hardly a "rumoured murder" in Goulston Street either!
So why would he be looking for a body like he affirmed to Crawford he was?

A torn piece of (bespotted, corner wet with blood) apron in dirty filthy Whitechapel found in a dark place between the jamb and the stairwell...stained with fecal matter... That means a "body" is about the immediate area does it?

My bet is that whomever "told" Long that the murder of Eddowes had happened, told him AFTER 2.20am (when he DIDN'T see anything at the same location). There is a likely man who would have known about that and told him. Halse, who was in the same street at the same time as Long.

Make of that what you will.
Oh, all Telegraph quotes are from The News from Whìtechapel, by Chisholm, DiGrazia and Yost, who later in the book opine that it is unlikely that an inquest reporter would insert made up comments into an inquest report. Therefore do we take them as accurate?

Kindly

Phil

[Monty]

The most likely man would have been PC William Bettles 190 H.

Upon the discovery of Strides body, in H divisions territory, the news filtered back to Leman St. They inturn issued telegraphs to all stations within the division.

This was procedure. Once the stations received the news either/and/or the beat Sergeants/spare Bobbies/runners were dispatched to spread the word best they could.

The City would have been made aware of the situation by the Met however its most likely the remainder of H division knew about Stride before the City. Therefore any Bobby in H would most likely have know something about a murder before any City or J division PC.

I'm not saying Halse wouldnt have been aware of Strides demise, just that Bettles would have certainly known before him.

As for Longs search, its pretty clear. He found a bloody apron piece and felt a murder may have taken place. He did his job, simple as that.

I guess its just too simple for some to comprehend.

Monty

[DVV]

Hi Phil

Mr Crawford: Having examined the staircase, what did you next do?
Long: I proceeded to the station.
Mr Crawford: Before going, did you hear that a murder had been committed?
Long: Yes.
Mr Crawford: It is common knowledge that two murders have been perpetrated. Which did you hear of?
Long: I heard of the murder in the City. There were rumours of another, but not certain.


A torn piece of (bespotted, corner wet with blood) apron in dirty filthy Whitechapel found in a dark place between the jamb and the stairwell...stained with fecal matter... That means a "body" is about the immediate area does it?
Phil

No problem here. Long has heard of a murder in the City, quite close to his beat. And of another one. He then founds a bloody piece of apron. What could he do, except what he did ?

[Phil Carter]

hello Monty,

You are talking about Bettles mentioning to Long about Stride. After an official tell all through H division. Fair enough.
If done as you say, Long would NOT have called it a 'rumour' of which he was 'unsure'.

As regards the knowledge of the Mitre Sq victim, Halse is
The more likely source of THAT info. (and considering your reasoning that the City police would only find out AFTER the Met police- would also be good reason for Long to only have heard unconfirmed rumour via a City policeman- about Stride.)

its that logical- using your own reasoning. But of course- believe what you will by all means- after all- a wet rag spotted with blood in a dark, filthy area must always mean a policeman thinks of a murder and starts looking for a body...not a person iNJURED, for example,, - according to you. Blimey, policemen must have been in and out of the police stations with all sorts of rubbish picked from the allyways and gutters that autumn. Its a wonder they ever completed a beat!

Phil

[DVV]

Please, Phil, go ahead. Long was "ordered" to find the piece of apron, that is it ?

[Phil Carter]

Hello David,

I havent said anything about that! If you believe it- fine. I dont know what to believe. Don Souden suggested one or both (Long and Halse) had lied, for personal reasons. I dont know what they told was a lie and what wasnt. I only put THEIR words up for others to judge. All can make what they will of their words.

Please don't put words in my mouth David. Im quite capable of saying my meaning. On this occasion, all I have said is that Halse is the person most likely to have told Long about the Mitre Square murder. A fair opinion, I believe.

Kindly

Phil

[DVV]

its that logical- using your own reasoning. But of course- believe what you will by all means- after all- a wet rag spotted with blood in a dark, filthy area must always mean a policeman thinks of a murder and starts looking for a body...not a person iNJURED, for example,, - according to you. Blimey, policemen must have been in and out of the police stations with all sorts of rubbish picked from the allyways and gutters that autumn. Its a wonder they ever completed a beat!

Phil

No need to put words in your mouth, Phil, here it is.

[Phil Carter]

No need to put words in your mouth, Phil, here it is.

Hello David,

Nice try- but those words have nothing to with YOUR suggestion David,
sorry old chap, wrong interpretation followed by wrong assumption,

I wrote.. i dont know what to believe was a lie and what wasnt- or why- IF they lied, as was suggested by another- the reason was.

By all means do keep assuming David. But this time you have it written twice, in clear sentences, that you have guessed wrong, with my own words to prove it.

So Halse MAY have lied not mentioning meeting Long? And vice versa? So? As Mr Souden has suggested- perhaps they did lie. Maybe about the above too. Its not going to break the case open! I have no idea why- if they did! And I am not going to guess either!

Policemen dont go looking for a BODY if they find a piece of 'spotted, blood and faecal mattered rag' David. A BODY suggests death. And as he saw no trail of blood- leading to NO BODY- then why run off to the station? The rag does not qualify being linked with the writing, unless, of course, the origin of the rag is known- which it wasnt until later.
All quite logical David, I believe.

Kindly

Phil

[Monty]

Hello Phil,


The City had the same procedure. Collard states he telegraphed Jewry Street HQ. They, in turn, would have telegraphed All Stations within the City and Met. Who, in turn, would have telegraphed their stations, concentrating on those bordering the City (Leman Street and Commercial Street).

Then, as outlined in my prevuious post, word would have gotten out. By 2.55am Long had heard of a City murder, this roughly an hour after Collard sent out his initial telegraph to HQ. Plenty of time for word within that area to spread.

Halse doesnt mention anyone when he passed through Goulston Street at 2.20am. Long doesnt mention anyone at his 2.20am sweep either. Long states that he had "passed (along Goulston Street) about twenty minutes past two o'clock".

About. Therefore his time is not specific. Therefore he may not have been in Goulston Street at the same time as Halse. Therefore the chances of the exchanging words (which would have been recorded had it happened) are slim to non existant.

its that logical- using your own reasoning. But of course- believe what you will by all means- after all- a wet rag spotted with blood in a dark, filthy area must always mean a policeman thinks of a murder and starts looking for a body...not a person iNJURED, for example,, - according to you. Blimey, policemen must have been in and out of the police stations with all sorts of rubbish picked from the allyways and gutters that autumn. Its a wonder they ever completed a beat!

What is your point here?

Long finds a blood soaked rag and assumes the worst, a logical reaction. Are you stating it was an over reaction?

He did his job. He found a suspicious item and did a sweep of the building. He would have been aware of why he was drafted in to Whitechapel, he would have been aware of the murders and its highly probable that Tabram was on his mind when he done the search of the stairs.

All this is not worthy of your ridicule. The man was doing his duty yet you question the reason why he conducted his search.

Yeah, I'll believe what will. The means is the evidence given and common sense.

If you wish to delve into fantasy that is your choice, however provide some solid support for your ideas rather than personal conjecture blinded by obvious prejudice.

Monty