Juwes...masonic after all?

[packers stem]

Found this on a freemasonry website

http://scottishriteftm.org/education_files/The%20Fascinating%20Masonic%20World.pdf

Surely they haven't relied on Knight or their info!!!

[packers stem]

the big what if?

Right,open mind required now my friends.
What if the killer/s were members of an organisation of opposed ideals to freemasonry who were killing people they suspected of being informants?
IF they somehow found out about the 'jewes' and used this in the message with the express intention of alerting Warren to the fact that they were carrying out the crimes and that the society that Warren was trying to uphold was indirectly responsible for 'the reign of terror'

[Chris]

Found this on a freemasonry website

http://scottishriteftm.org/education_files/The%20Fascinating%20Masonic%20World.pdf

Surely they haven't relied on Knight or their info!!!

If I understand correctly, no evidence has ever been found of this 'Juwes' usage in Freemasonry _before_ it was proposed in relation to the Ripper case. So it looks as though some of the information on this website may derive from Knight or another Ripper-related source.

[packers stem]

Of course Chris you could be right.The fact is though we just don't know and will never really know one way or another,the freemasons are a secret society and very few people are party to all information.We can't presume they used Knight for their info,in fact i would find this extremely unlikely as he would not have been a popular author in masonic circles i'd have thought.
When there are other authors who mention the 'Juwes' and especially like this on a Freemason site maybe we should not be so quick to dismiss.
It's just an interesting possibility and we need to keep an open mind

[Chris]

When there are other authors who mention the 'Juwes' and especially like this on a Freemason site maybe we should not be so quick to dismiss.

I'm sorry, but when people have searched so long and so hard for genuine masonic usage of the term, and completely failed to find any evidence of it whatsoever, we should be extremely sceptical. An unsourced assertion on a website is no evidence of anything at all.

[claire]

I really wouldn't assume that any site to do with the Masons is well-informed or unequivocally skeptical about Stephen Knight. I've posted here before about a colleague of mine, the poet and novelist Stephen Knight, who, after 'our' SK died, was contacted by several people, relieved he was still alive, and full of 'information' about the masons that they wanted to send to him, talk to him in secret locations (heheh) about et cetera. In other words, there are some loons out there who don't discriminate in terms of what sources they use.

[Rubyretro]

freemasons are a secret society and very few people are party to all information

.

I think that the other thing is, Packers, it is very questionable as to how 'secret' the Freemasons actually were/are.

A very quick perusal of some of the History of Freemasonry sites (for the UK only) shows that there were alot of working class members,and 'artisans' from the suburbs between 1750 and mid 1880s.

"Late Victorian Freemasonry was settled in its position in society. The
ins and outs of proceedings in various Grand Lodges were earnestly
debated in The Times, while the freemason George Grossmith mocked
the clerk Charles Pooter for his inability to understand masonic allusions".

The 'Pooter' thing was a 'joke', because by then it become a way to show that you were 'middle class' by joining the Masons (although Scotland and Ireland still -apparently- had working class members).

The Masons(GB) in the late 19th century were also very strongly 'church'.

So what were the 'secrets' known only to the highest cognoscenti ? -probably only details of rituals and myths..and nothing of major importance to anyone other than them.

I think that it's part of Human (tribal/gang) nature to make out to others that
there are 'secrets' that outsiders can't be allowed to know...witness the success of Dan Brown's books, and the continuing 'glamour' attached to being a 'Companion' in France- I can't believe that we'd find much 'skullduggery' really.

[Krinoid]

see this previous thread

Juwes did exist before knight according to below:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4923/7427.html

go way down the thread and see
Dear Mr Norder,

As you are well aware, the term "Juwes", exists in medieval manuscripts pertaining to that people who refer to themselves as "Jews" yet transliteration variation in this period uses the the term "Juwes". Since Freemasonary bases its foundation on manuscripts of this earlier period...not the 19th century...we may assume that this term "Juwes" could be a direct reference to the three enigmatic figures in the medieval lore of earlier Freemasonary, i.e., the construction of the House of Wisdom, aka, 'Solomon's Temple'. This era of frenetic philological speculation of those three rogues was long before the birth of America and Freemasonary in general.
Gosh, we have so much to learn about alphabetical desires, in general. But I guess Warren knew better than we do...since he was an expert on medieval manuscripts about the "Juwes" and the "Temple of Solomon".
As Ever, Rosey :-)

[Krinoid]

Also the graffiti could NOT have been up that long as people have said as it would have been talked about and made an impact as the police originally feared it would, and whoever JTR was, he saw it or wrote it in that brief time span, and why it was erased, ask the man who wrote a book on cubits in masonry and knew what it emant.

[Krinoid]

Sir Charles Warren wrote a book on The Ancient Cubit and Our Weights and Measures (1903) according to Wiki

[Krinoid]

from the old message board

Simply put, the word "Juwe" and "Juwes" existed prior to the use of the word "Jew". This word "Jew" appears in the English language after the translation of the bible (King James) from Latin into Anglo-Saxon (English). Hence it is a relatively modern transliteration of the Hebrew, "Iudhi/Iudha".
Ergo, the word "Juwes" existed as the term for those referred to in historical documentation as "Jews" long long ago...and surprising, during 1888 and even TODAY! It exists in the British Museum Library (just down the road from Whitechapel) and the Bodlian Library, Oxford (just up the road from Whitechapel), in fact, up and down, and in me Laydis Chamber.
Who would know of this term "Juwes", in 1888? I ASSUME scholars of the ilk of Warren, Anderson, and of course, the Chief Rabbi.
Hic Rhodus hic saltus!

[YankeeSergeant]

Juwes

Simply put, the word "Juwe" and "Juwes" existed prior to the use of the word "Jew". This word "Jew" appears in the English language after the translation of the bible (King James) from Latin into Anglo-Saxon (English). Hence it is a relatively modern transliteration of the Hebrew, "Iudhi/Iudha".
Ergo, the word "Juwes" existed as the term for those referred to in historical documentation as "Jews" long long ago...and surprising, during 1888 and even TODAY! It exists in the British Museum Library (just down the road from Whitechapel) and the Bodlian Library, Oxford (just up the road from Whitechapel), in fact, up and down, and in me Laydis Chamber.
Who would know of this term "Juwes", in 1888? I ASSUME scholars of the ilk of Warren, Anderson, and of course, the Chief Rabbi.
Hic Rhodus hic saltus!

All cogent points but could it also be a semi-literate person's mispelling? I'm not disputing mind you but I am offering a simple alternative. Do we really need to throw in a semi-secret society conspiracy into a series of murders that are already convoluted enough?

[Magpie]

I'm not going to get drawn into this argument againt, but I'd like to point out that Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas state that "Juwes" is a Masonic term referring to the three ruffians. Lomas is himself a Mason and considered by the Masons themselves to be a expert on Masonic history.