The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[perrymason]

Might it not also literally mean: the Jews will not be blamed without good reason?

Good night,
Frank

Hi Frank,Sam.....

I think the key here is what part of the phrase you use. In Sams example, "for nothing" might suggest that they have never been blamed for things the author perhaps thought they should have been. Your example uses "for nothing" to suggest that in fact there may be good reasons to blame them for something, but that they will not be blamed.

In my case I believe the "will not" and "be", rather than say "are", suggests that the author thinks some information concerning the possible blame of Jews for something will be either dis-proven or found to be without merit, or its assumed they will be exonerated for something they should be blamed for.

In the East End in 1888, antisemitism was as ripe in the police force as it was on the streets with gentiles....a year before the Ripper, mounted police clubbed many protesting Jews and others in Trafalgar Square....Im sure the locals, and the cops carried ill feelings away from that. I believe thats part of the prejudicial statements we see from some officials.

But in fact there is no real evidence that suggests the Ripper was Jewish, there is no evidence that suggests any Ripper victim was killed because she was a Gentile, or perhaps unknown to us, Jewish...there is no evidence that suggests the killings were being alluded to being committed by Jews from the Ripper...and there is no evidence that a gentile would have walked past that doorway as dawn broke, since almost exclusively, this was a Jewish neighborhood, and in an entrance way to Jewish occupied dwellings.

So what evidence exists that supports their contention that either Jews or Gentiles would be inflamed by a message that does not clearly suggest Jewish guilt?

I think when we read on the "Jewish" factor in many investigative notes, its the police voicing their own semetism, its not a true expression of the voice of the community.....which in this area, was a very high concentration of immigrant Jews. Ethnicity as relates to Ripper crimes should have been only an issue based on the total number of Jews in the area...and the liklihood that the killer lived in the area. There is no "Jewish" theme in the Ripper killings.......only on this particular night...when a woman is killed on property owned and operated by anarchist Jews.

If almost certainly only Jews would likely see it if left long enough to photograph, they could conceal the message from the street....and it doesnt specifically suggest guilt.... literally...is what the message represents on face value a cause for a riot.... by Jews?

All the best gents.

[Aristocles]

"The Juewes/Jewes/Juwes are the Men that will not be blamed for nothing"....literally means the male Jews will not be blamed for anything....which literally, predicts the outcome of any future investigations into their culpability for some act or acts.

The use of the future tense rather than perhaps "The Jews didnt do it", past tense,..... is suggestive of a future process that will clear the Jews of Blame.

I think the author likely meant what you said, but thats not what he wrote.

Best regards Sam

I "render" this as: If a male Jew is blamed it will not be baseless. It's not the case that a male Jew will be blamed for nothing.

Interesting stuff, I just assumed quam primum erubesco that it was scribbled by a semi-literate. Perhaps I will reconsider.

Love this place!

[Jane Welland]

I always thought

Being as how the graffito was found with the apron fragment in the wake of the murder of a woman in the vicinity of a club operated by Anarchist Jews, that what it meant was actually - 'It were the Jews wot dun it guv'nr'.

Or words to that effect. It seems clear that Warren et al thought the graffito was connected to the crime in some way - although not necessarily that Jack wrote it himself.

Look at it this way - if the graffito had read 'The Juwes are the men that will be blamed for nothing' that would be quite clear, wouldn't it? It would indicate, in a fairly straightforward manner, that the Jews were bound to be blamed for this murder of a Gentile woman in an area heavily populated with Jews, in the vicinity of a Jewish club.

It's the double negative that confuses (me, anyway...).

But if the above means 'The Jews will get the blame for nothing' then it follows that 'The Juwes are the Men that will not be blamed for nothing' either means, 'They won't get the blame' (unlikely, conisdering the circumstances, imo); or it means 'If you blame the Jews for this, you'll be right to do so' - in other words - see above.

A double negative to go with a double event - the language always has struck me as overly uneccessary - but I digress...

Now, in reality, the graffito may have been entirely incidental to the apron; it may have been written as an abstract, general comment; it may have been written to implicate the Jews in the murder of Liz Stride - at least.

If I'd been one of the police there at the time, I know what I'd have thought. Apparently they did too.

Aristocles: What about Chemistry??

Jane x

[Sam Flynn]

Aristocles: What about Chemistry??

As the great physicist, Richard Feynman, pointed out (in full accord with Ernest Rutherford), everything in science is about physics. Chemistry is all about interactions between atoms and molecules, and the way atoms and molecules behave depends on their physical (i.e. "of physics") properties, which are explained by the Laws of physics.

[alucard]

As with all the other fog surrounding the Ripper, I particuarly find the GSG REALLY frustrating.

Although it is perfectly plausible to assume that that the killer would have been more interested in avoiding capture than stopping to write down a cryptic message for the police, the fact that the blood soaked piece of garment left beneath it (quite possibly used to wrap Eddowes kidney in) leaves room for much interpretation. I am of the opinion however that the killer’s decision to disregard the bloody rag right beside the graffiti was no coincidence. Therefore, whether he wrote it or not is almost incidental since it appears a deliberate notion of baiting the police none-the-less. It is quite feasible that he may have noticed the ethnic slur whilst heading back into to his dwellings in the East End (I do believe we're dealing with a local man) after leaving Mitre Square, or even seen it earlier that same evening. The message appears to have been highly visible and would have been easily seen whilst walking past the building.

On the flip side, the contrary argument of him actually writing it isn’t too difficult to assume either, although I very much doubt he would have been carrying a piece of chalk with him all night. He could however have found some near entrance to the stairwell, possibly left by children earlier in the day. Also, if the killer was an immigrant, living among the Whitechapel community, had he himself been accosted by Lusk’s vigilante mob or the public, taunting him as the possible killer, along with the other Jewish suspects such as, Joseph “Leather Apron” Pizer? Was this an opportunity to answer back to what he may well have been hearing time and time again that the: Jewish men are being accused for good reason, i.e. the Ripper is a Jew. So could we instead be looking at the killer’s mindset at the time, ergo: “I’m your Jew… I’m your Ripper!” Just a thought.

However if I was to choose if he did or didn't, my gut tells me no, but my head say's yes.

I'm new to this and already I've a headache!!!

[perrymason]

As with all the other fog surrounding the Ripper, I particuarly find the GSG REALLY frustrating.

Although it is perfectly plausible to assume that that the killer would have been more interested in avoiding capture than stopping to write down a cryptic message for the police, the fact that the blood soaked piece of garment left beneath it (quite possibly used to wrap Eddowes kidney in) leaves room for much interpretation. I am of the opinion however that the killer’s decision to disregard the bloody rag right beside the graffiti was no coincidence. Therefore, whether he wrote it or not is almost incidental since it appears a deliberate notion of baiting the police none-the-less. It is quite feasible that he may have noticed the ethnic slur whilst heading back into to his dwellings in the East End (I do believe we're dealing with a local man) after leaving Mitre Square, or even seen it earlier that same evening. The message appears to have been highly visible and would have been easily seen whilst walking past the building.

On the flip side, the contrary argument of him actually writing it isn’t too difficult to assume either, although I very much doubt he would have been carrying a piece of chalk with him all night. He could however have found some near entrance to the stairwell, possibly left by children earlier in the day. Also, if the killer was an immigrant, living among the Whitechapel community, had he himself been accosted by Lusk’s vigilante mob or the public, taunting him as the possible killer, along with the other Jewish suspects such as, Joseph “Leather Apron” Pizer? Was this an opportunity to answer back to what he may well have been hearing time and time again that the: Jewish men are being accused for good reason, i.e. the Ripper is a Jew. So could we instead be looking at the killer’s mindset at the time, ergo: “I’m your Jew… I’m your Ripper!” Just a thought.

However if I was to choose if he did or didn't, my gut tells me no, but my head say's yes.

I'm new to this and already I've a headache!!!

I dont mean to further that headache, but we must also remember that there may well have been near an hour before the apron is even placed there. Its not seen until almost 3am, and Kates killer must have left Mitre Square by 1:44am to miss Watkins.

The delay supports the idea of a contrived placement...a contrived placement supports the idea of some kind of message being sent,...hence the GSG may be just what we should be expecting from the man who may have waited an hour to place the apron outdoors again.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

The delay supports the idea of a contrived placement...

It also supports the idea of a passing policeman simply not registering a discarded piece of rag the first time round. Long was a police officer, not a municipal litter warden, after all.

[perrymason]

It also supports the idea of a passing policeman simply not registering a discarded piece of rag the first time round. Long was a police officer, not a municipal litter warden, after all.

That is of course the other possibility Sam, ....but it wasnt just one officer that had a chance to see that cloth before 3am...2 men saw nothing...though we dont know that either looked at that specific spot.

All the best Sam

[Sam Flynn]

That is of course the other possibility Sam, ....but it wasnt just one officer that had a chance to see that cloth before 3am...2 men saw nothing...though we dont know that either looked at that specific spot.

We do know that one of them was heading south, hotfoot, to Mitre Square, with other things on his mind.

[perrymason]

We do know that one of them was heading south, hotfoot, to Mitre Square, with other things on his mind.

Which would certainly excuse him from the "missed" sighting, but never the less he goes right by that spot....and the next man is looking for things. Nothing specific....just for clues. That means checking out people and just about everything he can see with his naked eye. Since the authorities seemed to believe that this message could be easily seen from the street when daylight was present, that makes the message harder to see if in darkness....but a piece of cloth, a length of twine, a garbage bin full to the brim, a shoe, newspapers, they all could be clues...hes looking for anything and everything...with heightened senses knowing a very dangerous man might still be on the streets. Ill bet he whipped round on every bootstep behind him, and checked every inch of his immediate and visible surroundings with his scans. His first night on that beat, wasnt it? Might that not be a factor, unfamiliarity with an area might spawn some apprehension and curiosity about it?

"Youve not heard the last of me Moriarty"..... ..or do you feel more affinity for Holmes....your choice.

Nice to have at ya my friend.

[Sam Flynn]

Which would certainly excuse him from the "missed" sighting, but never the less he goes right by that spot....

If the apron was tucked inside the doorway (which, according to all acounts, it was), it would not be visible from most angles.

and the next man is looking for things.

Long wasn't looking for anything. My guess is that his "trajectory" and the angle of his head was such that he was able to see into the doorway this time round.

[lovejoy]

chalk graffiti

hi im neither yes or no not thought a lot on the subject but heres a thought when william bury confessed his wifes death the police found chalk graffiti on his back doors to cellar about jtr and he stabbed her abdominal regions repeated also strange for some who consider him a violent drunk only yours martin ps does anyone have a pic of graffiti writing apparently it was similar to the apron one

[Aristocles]

hi im neither yes or no not thought a lot on the subject but heres a thought when william bury confessed his wifes death the police found chalk graffiti on his back doors to cellar about jtr and he stabbed her abdominal regions repeated also strange for some who consider him a violent drunk only yours martin ps does anyone have a pic of graffiti writing apparently it was similar to the apron one

Punctuation!
marks.
can?
be;
valuable -
allies . . .

Come to think of it, the good 'ole' apostrophe can be a friend also.

[Monty]

A day to remember.

Blimey...Ally,

Your ideal newbie has arrived.

Didnt think this day would happen.

Amazed.

Monty

[perrymason]

I find it interesting that Warren was chastised by the head of the CID for erasing a possible "clue".

Which certainly suggests that some of those senior authorities believed the writing and apron were connected to the same person, because as independent issues, only the apron clearly would constitute a categorization as was made.

All the best.