The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Batman]

Mountains out of molehills

People get pulled forward so they lean back and are easier to throw down with their own weight. The spot between this and where her body is found is a few feet. She need not get up from this incident. Like has been stated, people give robbers stuff during robberies and dropping sweets in muck isn't going to help. Could she have been soliciting by a dark semi-public yard. Well yeah. That's what they do. JtR never draws his knife first. He renders them unconscious first. As the inquest said, if one would read it, they where dancing playing music and doing plenty of noise not to hear anything. Schwartz also said the woman's cries where not loud. It was dark. Schwartz didn't see Pipeman until he lit up, so how could JtR see him? Schwartz walked passed from behind. The assault had already taken place. The idea SKs have never been seen attacking someone can be debunked with ease I afraid. A quick scan of anything shows even victims surviving to tell the tale and ID the person who tried to kill them. There is no doubt the Yorkshire Ripper was walked in on by 2 policemen before he was about to kill someone. SKs make mistakes. They are not Einstein. As noted, Swanson has corrected any notion of doubt, which is normal, before concluding there was no reason to doubt. Anything less is out of context. Certainly the best place to go if you have seen a crime in progress is right to your house, just so they know where you live. There is no point in checking to see if the coast is clear is there? Oh wait, didn't Schwartz describe just doing that?

No mystery.

[c.d.]

Hello John G,

It simply does not follow that Schwartz was lying by attempting to show that the B.S. man could not have been her killer. Schwartz never said that he was. That very salient point seems to get overlooked.

As far as running past his own house, why show your pursuers where you live?

c.d.

[John G]

People get pulled forward so they lean back and are easier to throw down with their own weight. The spot between this and where her body is found is a few feet. She need not get up from this incident. Like has been stated, people give robbers stuff during robberies and dropping sweets in muck isn't going to help. Could she have been soliciting by a dark semi-public yard. Well yeah. That's what they do. JtR never draws his knife first. He renders them unconscious first. As the inquest said, if one would read it, they where dancing playing music and doing plenty of noise not to hear anything. Schwartz also said the woman's cries where not loud. It was dark. Schwartz didn't see Pipeman until he lit up, so how could JtR see him? Schwartz walked passed from behind. The assault had already taken place. The idea SKs have never been seen attacking someone can be debunked with ease I afraid. A quick scan of anything shows even victims surviving to tell the tale and ID the person who tried to kill them. There is no doubt the Yorkshire Ripper was walked in on by 2 policemen before he was about to kill someone. SKs make mistakes. They are not Einstein. As noted, Swanson has corrected any notion of doubt, which is normal, before concluding there was no reason to doubt. Anything less is out of context. Certainly the best place to go if you have seen a crime in progress is right to your house, just so they know where you live. There is no point in checking to see if the coast is clear is there? Oh wait, didn't Schwartz describe just doing that?

No mystery.

The assault hadn't taken place when Schwartz arrived! He refers to observing BS man walking towards Stride, stopping and then speaking to her prior to the assault. You say it was dark: so how did Schwartz manage to see so much, including giving a detailed description of BS man, who he only saw from the opposite side of the street? I mean, he even mentions the colour of his moustache! And how was he also able to give such a detailed description of Pipeman, including the colour of his hair and moustache? If you're correct about the lighting conditions, why doesn't this fact alone prove Schwartz lied, given his detailed descriptions? Why didn't BS man check that there was no one else present before launching an attack?

Are you seriously still arguing that Stride thought that BS man was attempting to steal the cachous? Why do you think that a few sweets were so valuable and worth assaulting someone over?

Please give examples of serial killers who have attempted to murder victims in front of witnesses. If JtR attempts to render his victims unconscious first, why did BS man not attempt do this, but opting to pull Stride into the street instead?

How do you know they were playing music loud? Where's the evidence there was any dancing taking place? If that was the case, why did Eagle say he would have heard an altercation? Why did Swanson rapidly lose interest in Schwartz? What is your explanation for Brown's contradictory evidence?

If Stride didn't get up from "this incident" that means BS man must have dragged Stride into the Yard. Why was there no evidence of this, i.e. bruising? Why wasn't her clothing damaged? Why didn't she cry out for assistance?

[John G]

Hello John G,

It simply does not follow that Schwartz was lying by attempting to show that the B.S. man could not have been her killer. Schwartz never said that he was. That very salient point seems to get overlooked.

As far as running past his own house, why show your pursuers where you live?

c.d.

Hello C.d,

Yes, I accept it's possible that Schwartz witnessed a minor assault, and that Stride was subsequently killed by someone else. However, there are number of problems with this argument, including Brown's contradictory evidence.

[c.d.]

Hi John,

The thing is once you put on the conspiracy colored glasses everything reeks of a conspiracy. Had this been the first murder, I might be more accepting that the club was somehow involved but as Batman has pointed out none of the other murder sites came under suspicion that the site itself was significant and somehow related to the murder. Even though the police did not like the club and its members, I don't see why club members would automatically feel the need to go into conspiracy mode which could blow up in their faces. All they really needed to do was cooperate with the police as much as possible.

c.d.

[Batman]

SKs make mistakes John

The assault hadn't taken place when Schwartz arrived!

Reference please.

He refers to observing BS man walking towards Stride, stopping and then speaking to her prior to the assault.

So?

You say it was dark: so how did Schwartz manage to see so much, including giving a detailed description of BS man, who he only saw from the opposite side of the street?

Not that detailed as say Hutchinson. Its as detailed as any other witness to JtR. He was moving closer, not further away, but crossing the street ultimately had him going away and more towards pipeman.

I mean, he even mentions the colour of his moustache!

Not his eyes or eyelashes though. Remember, Lipski was shouted at him, so he probably got a glance at whoever was shouting that.

And how was he also able to give such a detailed description of Pipeman, including the colour of his hair and moustache?

See above.

If you're correct about the lighting conditions, why doesn't this fact alone prove Schwartz lied, given his detailed descriptions?

See above, plus he was investigated. Are you suggesting his wife was in on it too? He should be there at that time and place given he was going home.

Why didn't BS man check that there was no one else present before launching an attack?

Maybe he did. They make mistakes. JtR isn't a ninja hitman.

Are you seriously still arguing that Stride thought that BS man was attempting to steal the cachous? Why do you think that a few sweets were so valuable and worth assaulting someone over?

To give you an idea of the sort of value they would scrap over, see Chapman and the soap piece or Nichols and the broken mirror. Its 1888 poverty.

Please give examples of serial killers who have attempted to murder victims in front of witnesses.

Plenty who survived as I said. SKs make mistakes John.

If JtR attempts to render his victims unconscious first, why did BS man not attempt do this, but opting to pull Stride into the street instead?

How is that inconsistent with rendering someone unconscious?

How do you know they were playing music loud? Where's the evidence there was any dancing taking place? If that was the case, why did Eagle say he would have heard an altercation?

See inquest. It is the explanation given there for why they heard nothing.

Why did Swanson rapidly lose interest in Schwartz?

There is no evidence of that. Witnesses are not the sort of thing you want to keep making public knowledge of you know?

What is your explanation for Brown's contradictory evidence?

Witnesses are recalling from memory. They are not transporting us back in a time machine.

If Stride didn't get up from "this incident" that means BS man must have dragged Stride into the Yard. Why was there no evidence of this, i.e. bruising?

There is lots of bruising, shoulder and front. The crime scene was contaminated by people walking around it. Anyway your wrong. There is evidence. There is mud on both sides of her coat yet the hypothesis you subscribe too can't explain both unless you still believe the whole JtR had mud on him hypothesis.

Why wasn't her clothing damaged?

Why should it be? You can skid on mud all day and damage nothing.

Why didn't she cry out for assistance?

She did.

Sorry, which case are you discussing exactly? Do we have the same victim? All of this stuff is answered in the inquest or by a careful reading of any good book on the subject really.

[Batman]

coincidental bad timing?

Why make arguments about how badly calculated BSman was in his attack if you then accept JtR ALSO badly calculated his attempt at mutilation?

Can't you see they are likely one and the same person if you attribute characteristics like this?

[John G]

Hello Batman,

I'm a bit confused by your last reply. You suggest that Schwartz didn't witness at assault. Well, then he lied because he said he did, i.e he witnessed Stride being thrown to the ground and pulled in to the street.

It is your argument that it was light enough for Schwartz to notice detail like moustache colour and hair colour, but too dark for BS man to notice Schwartz and Pipeman!

I don't know why you persist with the argument that Stride and BS man were having some sort of tug of war match over the cachous. Anyway, as c.d. has proved, Stride would have naturally thrown out both arms to protect herself when thrown to the ground, thus dropping the cachous. Or do you believe Stride had "Ninja" training?

If Swanson didn't loose interest in Schwartz, please detail all the references to him after 1888. Why wasn't he utilized for ID purposes? Why was the Star the only newspaper to take Schwartz seriously? And, as noted, even they suggested his account was doubted.

Why wasn't Stride dress damaged when she was dragged into the yard. Why didn't she cry out? If she did, why didn't Eagle and Mrs D hear anything?

Why do you say that pulling someone into the street is consistent with rendering them unconscious? How do you render someone unconscious in this way.

Please give examples of serial killers who attempted to murder victims in front of witnesses? You refer to "plenty" in your previous post. Is "Plenty" the name of a serial killer?

[c.d.]

Hello John,

I don't think that I proved that Stride would have landed with palms outstretched only that it is much more probable than not.

c.d.

[John G]

Hi John,

The thing is once you put on the conspiracy colored glasses everything reeks of a conspiracy. Had this been the first murder, I might be more accepting that the club was somehow involved but as Batman has pointed out none of the other murder sites came under suspicion that the site itself was significant and somehow related to the murder. Even though the police did not like the club and its members, I don't see why club members would automatically feel the need to go into conspiracy mode which could blow up in their faces. All they really needed to do was cooperate with the police as much as possible.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

I doubt that the club were involved in a major conspiracy. However, I do think that Eagle, say, could have advised Schwartz to fabricate an account in order to benefit from some easy money, i.e. by selling his story to the newspapers. If Schwartz were in debt, then that could have been a simple solution to his problems. It's worth noting that a number of other witnesses, such as Packer, seem to have made up evidence, without consequences, so the risk was probably fairly small. In fact, Packer actually changed his evidence after informing a police officer that he didn't witness anything suspicious. I doubt that the police would have been willing to risk discourage witnesses from coming forward by prosecuting time wasters.

I agree that the club do seem to have cooperated with the police, therefore there is very little basis for a grand conspiracy argument.

[c.d.]

Hello John,

I don't think that I proved that Stride would have landed with palms outstretched only that it is much more probable than not.

c.d.

I should add that in case you missed a previous post I did fall off my bike last week. It was quite unexpected and I fell with my palms outstretched to break the fall. It was just a natural reaction and I had no time to prepare. Ended up with a couple of bruises on the heel of my hand. I also pushed myself up by putting my weight on my outstretched palms. Again without thinking about it.

Does this mean that every single person that falls will do the same thing? No, but I think it more likely than not.

c.d.

[John G]

Hi John,

The thing is once you put on the conspiracy colored glasses everything reeks of a conspiracy. Had this been the first murder, I might be more accepting that the club was somehow involved but as Batman has pointed out none of the other murder sites came under suspicion that the site itself was significant and somehow related to the murder. Even though the police did not like the club and its members, I don't see why club members would automatically feel the need to go into conspiracy mode which could blow up in their faces. All they really needed to do was cooperate with the police as much as possible.

c.d.

Hello John,

I don't think that I proved that Stride would have landed with palms outstretched only that it is much more probable than not.

c.d.

Hello c.d.

And as I've noted before, surely Stride's natural response to being pulled into the street would have been to resist with both arms; in which case she would surely have dropped the cachous.

And we know Stride must have resisted because Schwartz says that BS man "tried" to pull Stride into the street. In other words,he failed, so Stride succeeded in fending him off.

[John G]

I should add that in case you missed a previous post I did fall off my bike last week. It was quite unexpected and I fell with my palms outstretched to break the fall. It was just a natural reaction and I had no time to prepare. Ended up with a couple of bruises on the heel of my hand. I also pushed myself up by putting my weight on my outstretched palms. Again without thinking about it.

Does this mean that every single person that falls will do the same thing? No, but I think it more likely than not.

c.d.

Thanks. I did see your post about the bike, and it was that post I was referring to in my reply to Batman. It does seem obvious that stretching out your palms to break a fall, and again when getting up, would be the instinctive thing to do.

[Wickerman]

Given the description of the man seen by James Brown about 12:45 bore no resemblance to the man seen by PC Smith at 12:30-35, and the coat he wore reached down to his heels, plus the woman was not seen to be wearing the flower, which PC Smith had seen on her jacket.

It just seems to me to be a slender thread to base any solid theory on. Especially a theory which requires the dismissal of another witness.

[John G]

Given the description of the man seen by James Brown about 12:45 bore no resemblance to the man seen by PC Smith at 12:30-35, and the coat he wore reached down to his heels, plus the woman was not seen to be wearing the flower, which PC Smith had seen on her jacket.

It just seems to me to be a slender thread to base any solid theory on. Especially a theory which requires the dismissal of another witness.

Hi Jon,

Brown clearly didn't get a very good look at either the man or the woman, and his descriptions therefore are somewhat vague. Nonetheless, he was almost sure that the woman was Stride. True, he didn't notice the woman wearing a flower, unlike Smith, but then neither did William Marshall. And it should be noted that he gave evidence at the inquest, whereas Schwartz didn't. However, what I find to be of most significant interest is that if Brown was mistaken in his identification of Stride, then why did neither the man or women come forward so they could be eliminated from the enquiry? After all, Goldstein came forward and he was a possible suspect.

It should also be noted that there is a major inconsistency between Smith's evidence and Schwartz's. Thus, Smith's sighting was at around 12:35, and he saw Stride taking to a man. However, this man was carrying a fairly large parcel wrapped in newspaper: around 18in long and 6 to 8in broad. Schwartz, however, makes no mention of BS man carrying a parcel, even though his alleged sighting was only 10 minutes later.

Moreover, if PC Smith and William Marshall saw Stride with the same man then they'd clearly been together, engaged in conversation, for some time. Brown also saw a man and a woman talking to each other, so in this respect his evidence isn't inconsistent with the other two witnesses. However, Schwartz saw a man stop and speak to Stride, who was stood by the gateway. Therefore, they clearly were not initially together. This suggests a lack of continuity with PC Smith's and William Marshall's evidence, assuming they were the same man and woman.