The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Batman]

Swanson gave no other reason to his superiors than Packer had changed his story. If there was anything else it was not deemed important enough to mention, so why not just accept the matter ended there?

I'm sure his story was investigated, but I am just as perplexed as some others with the turn of events.
The opinions given, both official (Anderson & Swanson) & unofficial (Star & Echo), point in different directions.

You guys make a mystery out of nothing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with investigators doubting a story before finally settling on having no reason to doubt the story. That's all that is.

They don't go back on forth and like Begg has said, it is completely at odds with the investigation records to think they didn't accept Schwartz.

[lynn cates]

police

Hello John. Thanks.

"Mind you, once a more reliable witnesses, Lawende, came along, Schwartz was clearly quickly dropped."

Except by the Home Office. Those worthies still sought BSM's notorious accomplice--Lipski. (heh-heh)

This is analogous to an altercation between a white chap and a black one. The charge is made that a racial slur--N-word--was used. Police are seeking Mr. N-word for information. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello Jon.

"I am inclined to suspect that Swanson's report was not up to date when he appears to give credence to Schwartz."

Bingo.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mum's the word

Hello CD. Try, "Hey, Schwartz. You're a good actor . . ."

"Now if the police had suspicions that Schwartz out and out lied to them and they now had an opportunity to really go after those rotten bastard anarchists, Schwartz, as an immigrant with a wife and young child, would be a prime candidate for intimidation."

Suspicions do NOT amount to hard and fast evidence.

Of course, AFTER those suspicions, the club never even MENTIONED Schwartz in their article. Suddenly mum.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

If the club conspired why didn't they dump the body instead of running around screaming literal bloody murder? Is that honestly a plan?

I suppose Chapman was killed by Hanbury lodgers, Eddowes by the Jews at Mitre sq., and Kelly by the Dorset St. Residence.

[John G]

If the club conspired why didn't they dump the body instead of running around screaming literal bloody murder? Is that honestly a plan?

I suppose Chapman was killed by Hanbury lodgers, Eddowes by the Jews at Mitre sq., and Kelly by the Dorset St. Residence.

Dumping the body would have been a crazy idea. I mean, to begin with there was the risk that external witnesses, such as Fanny Mortimer or, say, the couple referred to by Mortimer, would have seen something; there was also the possibility that they may have been interrupted by PC Smith, passing by on his beat. And then there was the problem of the club members: 20-30 people stayed behind after the talk; they surely couldn't all be relied upon to keep quiet.

No, I would envisage something much more mundane. Thus, I consider it inconceivable that Schwartz, an immigrant who couldn't speak English, would have come forward of his own volition. He must have either spoken to community leaders, such as Eagle, first or have been approached by someone and advised to come forward.

In such circumstances his motive may have been purely financial. For instance, maybe he had debts, possibly even owing the club money, and when the press came around offering cash for information, it was suggested to him that this was an easy way out of his predicament. And then there was the matter of the reward offered by the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. In fact Packer seems to have had no difficulty in providing a fabricated story to the press, probably for financial gain, even though this meant completely revising the account he had previously given to Sergeant White, when he said he had seen nothing of a suspicious nature! I therefore see no reason why Schwartz couldn't have been motivated by the same consideration.

[lynn cates]

straws

Hello John.

"Dumping the body would have been a crazy idea."

Quite. Batman is grasping at straws again.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

"Thus, I consider it inconceivable that Schwartz, an immigrant who couldn't speak English, would have come forward of his own volition."

"Inconceivable" that someone might feel some sort of moral responsibility after witnessing what could have been a woman being murdered?

c.d.

[Wyatt Earp]

Yes, but whoever killed Stride was not some drunken fool. He was calm and controlled enough to persuade Stride to enter a pitch black dark passage with him, where he rapidly overpowered her, without attracting the attention of a single witness, including Mrs D, who was sat in the kitchen, just feet away, with the window open. He was also alert and lucid enough to kill Stride in a forensically aware way, i.e. he avoided arterial spray.

Drunk people are incapable of avoiding arterial spray? I can’t agree with that. Drunk people have been avoiding flying objects for centuries, lol.

Regarding "hefty payment." So now JtR is Astrachan man!

If you had read hefty payment as “persuasive payment” instead of “a king’s ransom,” you would have been correct.

Regarding JtR having an accomplice, where's the evidence for this?

No proof, but the possibility exists.

Regarding Stride knowing her assailant, why is this not just a domestic incident, then?

I don’t think too many people believe that Michael Kidney murdered Stride.

Regarding BS man not noticing Schwartz, even Robert Napper wasn't hopelessly disorganized enough to attack his victims in front of witnesses and he was paranoid schizophrenic!

You keep insisting that he assaulted her in front of witnesses, but you keep ignoring the possibility that he hadn’t yet noticed Schwartz and that Pipeman was a friend or accomplice of us.

Regarding Stride "just wanting to get it over with". So why did she previously resist his attempts to pull her into the street? Why did she cry out? Why did BS man attempt to pull Stride into the street, if his ultimate strategy was to persuade her to go into the dark passage with him?

She apparently did not want to do business with him at first, but carrot and/or stick eventually persuaded her to do so. Don’t get distracted by the initial disagreement and the throwing around, he could have just lost his temper with her. The actual murder took place in the yard, where they would have gone following the resolution of their disagreement.

John, you can obviously rail against Schwartz to your heart’s content here, but until you can come up with some reasonable basis for ruling out his account, it remains very much in play.

[c.d.]

Let me also point out that Schwartz never said that he saw a woman being murdered.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

You guys make a mystery out of nothing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with investigators doubting a story before finally settling on having no reason to doubt the story. That's all that is.

They don't go back on forth and like Begg has said, it is completely at odds with the investigation records to think they didn't accept Schwartz.

Yes, but Paul has posted in the past that he thinks Schwartz was Anderson's Witness. So, Paul has an interest in keeping Schwartz in the picture.

Considering the investigations that were pursued in the aftermath of, and in consequence of, Schwartz giving his statement to police, I find it strange that Swanson only refers to Schwartz's initial statement, which must surely have been only the first word on the matter, not the last word.

So, for me it isn't necessarily Swanson's opinion that causes concern, it is the subsequent opinion of Abberline a month later, which also betrays no doubt when he refers to Schwartz.

So, as far out as 1st Nov. Scotland Yard appear to hold no doubts about Schwartz, yet Schwartz was not called at any sittings of the inquest on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th or even the 23rd of October.

It is perplexing.

[Batman]

Dumping the body would have been a crazy idea. I mean, to begin with there was the risk that external witnesses,

1. See Thames Torso Murders
2. They had horse and cart.

Seriously, you want a quiet assassin who can't load a cart and not make any noise.

Are there not enough mysteries elsewhere? Why make new ones up?

[John G]

1. See Thames Torso Murders
2. They had horse and cart.

Seriously, you want a quiet assassin who can't load a cart and not make any noise.

Are there not enough mysteries elsewhere? Why make new ones up?

I may be completely wrong about this, but I somehow doubt that the Torso Murderer ever attempted to pile a body into a cart in front of 20-30 anarchic club members and Fanny Mortimer!

[Batman]

talking at cross purposes

I may be completely wrong about this, but I somehow doubt that the Torso Murderer ever attempted to pile a body into a cart in front of 20-30 anarchic club members and Fanny Mortimer!

? Either we are talking about a club conspiracy or not.

[John G]

Drunk people are incapable of avoiding arterial spray? I can’t agree with that. Drunk people have been avoiding flying objects for centuries, lol.



If you had read hefty payment as “persuasive payment” instead of “a king’s ransom,” you would have been correct.



No proof, but the possibility exists.



I don’t think too many people believe that Michael Kidney murdered Stride.



You keep insisting that he assaulted her in front of witnesses, but you keep ignoring the possibility that he hadn’t yet noticed Schwartz and that Pipeman was a friend or accomplice of us.



She apparently did not want to do business with him at first, but carrot and/or stick eventually persuaded her to do so. Don’t get distracted by the initial disagreement and the throwing around, he could have just lost his temper with her. The actual murder took place in the yard, where they would have gone following the resolution of their disagreement.

John, you can obviously rail against Schwartz to your heart’s content here, but until you can come up with some reasonable basis for ruling out his account, it remains very much in play.

Hello Wyatt,

Stride was clearly seriously concerned by BS Man; I mean, if that wasn't the case, why did she strongly resist his attempts to pull her into the street? After he subsequently assaulted her, by spinning her around, and throwing her to the ground, why would she then suddenly become so unconcerned- a complete volte-face- that she would agree to go with him into a narrow, pitch black dark, cul-de sac? Why would she be assuaged by a bag of sweets? Why would she be relaxed enough to take out and eat the sweets in front of someone who had just assaulted her? Why was Stride initially alarmed by BS man and what he said to her? Why was Stride waiting by the gates?

If BS man intended to kill Stride, why didn't he slit her throat whilst trying to pull her into the street? Why wasn't his knife drawn at this point? Why didn't he slit her throat after she cried out for help? Why didn't he at least draw his knife to threaten her? If his intention was to murder Stride in Dutfield's Yard, why did he attempt to pull her away from the Yard, i.e. towards the street?

Why did no one in the club hear the altercation that Schwartz claimed to have witnessed? Why did Mrs D, sat in the kitchen with the window open, not hear anything? Why did Lave fail to see the altercation, bearing in mind he left the club around 12:40 and walked as far as the gate? Why did Mortimer, or the couple she referred to, fail to see or hear anything?

Why did he assault Stride in front of two witnesses? If he didn't notice the witnesses were there, even though they were stood a few feet away, doesn't this make him the most disorganized serial killer in history? After all, even Robert Napper, who was paranoid schizophrenic, and Richard Chase, never attacked a victim in front of witnesses they'd failed to recognize. How did such a disorganized killer succeed in murdering Stride next to a busy a club, with nobody hearing anything, including Mrs D who was sat a few feet away in the kitchen with the window open? How is it that such a disorganized killer was so forensically aware, avoiding arterial spray?

What is your explanation for the the fact the James Brown's evidence contradicts Schwartz? if the couple he saw were not Stride and her attacker, why did they not come forward for elimination purposes? After all, Goldstein came forward and he was a possible suspect.

If Schwartz's evidence was so reliable, why was the Star the only newspaper to express an interest in his story? Why did they say that the police had reason to doubt the truth of the story?

Why did the police rapidly loose interest in Schwartz? Why was Lawende the police's prime witness and not Schwartz, even though he didn't pay much attention to his suspect?

Why does Schwartz press account vary so much from his police account? Why did Schwartz run past his own house, when trying to escape the attentions of BS man/Pipeman?