The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[John G]

We have lots of witness testimony seeing the victims with someone or even hearing them being assaulted, so yes, he even attacked during a double beat of mitre sq.

Its in escape that he is stealthy, not attacks.

I see no reason given why you discounted Stride at all.

There are no examples of JtR seen murdering victims. I would question whether anyone heard a victim being assaulted. Moreover, when you consider that Stride was killed next to a busy club, with Mrs D probably sat a few feet a way with the window open, and yet nobody heard or saw a thing, I don't see how it can reasonably argued that her killer was not stealthy during her attack.

[Batman]

They where questioned.

Albert Cadosch is one who heard Chapman being assaulted.

How do you explain JtRs near miss with a PCs light on mitre square? Did he measure the distance prior or something.

The fact he is mutilating on the streets is enough to tell us this guy takes massive risks.

Even the police couldn't control an area from people walking in what chance does JtR have?

[John G]

We have lots of witness testimony seeing the victims with someone or even hearing them being assaulted, so yes, he even attacked during a double beat of mitre sq.

Its in escape that he is stealthy, not attacks.

I see no reason given why you discounted Stride at all.

They where questioned.

Albert Cadosch is one who heard Chapman being assaulted.

How do you explain JtRs near miss with a PCs light on mitre square? Did he measure the distance prior or something.

The fact he is mutilating on the streets is enough to tell us this guy takes massive risks.

Even the police couldn't control an area from people walking in what chance does JtR have?

Albert Cadosch may have heard someone falling against a fence, who may have been Chapman. Not sure what you're referring to with the Mitre Square incident.

The fact is, this is a killer who was able to gain the confidence of his victims, before taking them by surprise and quickly overpowering them. There is little evidence that the victims were given the opportunity to resist, or that they were able to cry out for help.

BS man's clumsy assault, in front of witnesses, clearly indicates a very different kind of MO and personality. In fact, I would have thought Stride's killer was much more likely to he the man Marshall saw her conversing with; a man he describes as "mildly spoken, as if well-educated". Very different from BS man's somewhat limited and unsophisticated vocabulary, as evidenced by his shouts of "Lipski", and his decision to attack Stride after a few short words.

[Batman]

The idea lust killers don't mess up and get seen is obviously undermined by examples galore to the contrary. They make mistakes John. They aren't Einstein.

PC James Harvey's flashlight was shown around mitre sq at the end of church passage. All he had to do was shine it more in the direction that Eddowes was being murdered and likely seen the murder taking place. His beam was a few feet away from it.

Did JtR measure this before? Unlikely. What is more likely is that he TRUSTED Eddowes instincts about where to go. Not his plan.

There is no reason to think a woman standing near a dark alley at the time isn't available for a date.

Mitre square had people living over it looking down onto it. Same with Hanbury back yard. Same with Nichols. PCs walked these beats too.

Nah he isn't a skilled assassin at all. Just very lucky.

[Batman]

And would the killer have even been able to write such a message under the poor lighting conditions?

Jacks abilities in the dark are extremely good. In fact we can discount anyone with poor vision as a suspect I think. He ate his carrots it seems.

Apprentantly pirates wore an eyepatch so they could instantly obtain night vision.

Becoming accustomed to the dark and even working in the dark must be an attribute of JtR.

Or he had a lamp.

[John G]

The idea lust killers don't mess up and get seen is obviously undermined by examples galore to the contrary. They make mistakes John. They aren't Einstein.

PC James Harvey's flashlight was shown around mitre sq at the end of church passage. All he had to do was shine it more in the direction that Eddowes was being murdered and likely seen the murder taking place. His beam was a few feet away from it.

Did JtR measure this before? Unlikely. What is more likely is that he TRUSTED Eddowes instincts about where to go. Not his plan.

There is no reason to think a woman standing near a dark alley at the time isn't available for a date.

Mitre square had people living over it looking down onto it. Same with Hanbury back yard. Same with Nichols. PCs walked these beats too.

Nah he isn't a skilled assassin at all. Just very lucky.

Hello Batman,

As I've noted before, I think JtR was an organized killer. Thus, he was able to gain the trust of his victims; he had the self-restraint to delay his assault until he had lured his victims to pre-determined locations (or allowed the victim to take him to relatively secluded locations, I.e for the purpose of solicitation.); he quickly overpowered his victims, giving them no opportunity to resist or cry out; he was able to work quickly and quietly in poor lighting conditions.

Of course, an organized killer today wouldn't murder victims in public places but, in this regard, JtR's options would be much more limited: he would have no access to a vehicle and any local accommodation he had would be likely to be multi-occupancy and overcrowded.

[c.d.]

People got mobbed and nearly lynched for less at that time.

He would also be a JtR suspect given they where looking for someone behaving like him.

If he was JtR then he would want to avoid that, especially if he was already interviewed at another earlier time.

She can ID him.

Could have ID him, but not anymore. She is dead.

I think your argument CD is more appropriate for the conspiracy theory. Why murder a prostitute during the ripper murders for soliciting outside a club?

JtR was seen by people other than Schwartz. He isn't very stealthy at all, but maybe his getaways are.

Hello Batman,

ID'd him as what? A man who pushed her? Surely it would be quite easy to make up a plausible story to explain away his actions. Hundreds of people were questioned but none were arrested. Unless he had some of the previous victims possessions or organs in his home, I really don't see what he had to fear. Killing her over being ID'd not as the Ripper but simply for pushing her makes no sense.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello CD. Bingo.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

JtR must have a knife on him

Hello Batman,

ID'd him as what? A man who pushed her? Surely it would be quite easy to make up a plausible story to explain away his actions. Hundreds of people were questioned but none were arrested. Unless he had some of the previous victims possessions or organs in his home, I really don't see what he had to fear. Killing her over being ID'd not as the Ripper but simply for pushing her makes no sense.

c.d.

There where lots of arrests made during the Whitechapel murders and thousands of people questioned. There where nearly lynchings and almost daily cases of someone being hunted by the maddening crowd over less. Just simply someone looking strange was enough, let alone someone assaulting women.

Pizer is a good example of this. Schwartz's testimony is the sort of thing Pizer was known for. Pizer was a major JtR candidate and if it wasn't for his alibi, what would have become of him?

She was thrown down on the ground. Hence why we have the shoulder bruising in the forensics. I don't know what sort of an attack resulting in shoulder bruising wouldn't constitute someone being assaulted.

What the ripper had to fear was being discovered with a knife on him, on the streets at night, in close proximity to where an assault had taken place. His only option is to ditch the weapon and not get caught with it. However given that investigators actively searched areas for clues, it would surely turn up in no time like the bloody apron.

So what's his options once he thrown a women to the ground this way?

He can silence her or not. One or the other, really.

If he silences her, he can walk away without her screaming JtR and nobody to ID him. If he doesn't, he will have to leg it and ditch the knife.

The former was obviously selected and more to the point - he got away with it, even after having been seen Schwartz.

[John G]

There where lots of arrests made during the Whitechapel murders and thousands of people questioned. There where nearly lynchings and almost daily cases of someone being hunted by the maddening crowd over less. Just simply someone looking strange was enough, let alone someone assaulting women.

Pizer is a good example of this. Schwartz's testimony is the sort of thing Pizer was known for. Pizer was a major JtR candidate and if it wasn't for his alibi, what would have become of him?

She was thrown down on the ground. Hence why we have the shoulder bruising in the forensics. I don't know what sort of an attack resulting in shoulder bruising wouldn't constitute someone being assaulted.

What the ripper had to fear was being discovered with a knife on him, on the streets at night, in close proximity to where an assault had taken place. His only option is to ditch the weapon and not get caught with it. However given that investigators actively searched areas for clues, it would surely turn up in no time like the bloody apron.

So what's his options once he thrown a women to the ground this way?

He can silence her or not. One or the other, really.

If he silences her, he can walk away without her screaming JtR and nobody to ID him. If he doesn't, he will have to leg it and ditch the knife.

The former was obviously selected and more to the point - he got away with it, even after having been seen Schwartz.

I think these arguments are completely untenable. Firstly, numerous women were subjected to assaults during this period, many of which were far more serious than what Schwartz supposedly witnessed; in fact, the very night Stride and Eddowes were killed another women was murdered by having her throat cut.Therefore, it makes no sense that Stride was killed because her assailant was fearful that a minor assault would result in him being accused of being JtR. In fact, if that were the case then someone who wasn't JtR would have just as strong a motive to commit murder, I.e because of fear of false accusations.

As to the bruising on the shoulders, this was clearly not the result of an impact injury, I.e being thrown to the ground, and they may, in any event, have been old injuries. Dr Phillips stated: "They were what we call pressure marks...They were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasion. Each shoulder was about equally marked."

And when asked by a juror how recently the marks had been caused, Dr Phillips responded, "That is rather difficult to say."

[Batman]

I think these arguments are completely untenable. Firstly, numerous women were subjected to assaults during this period, many of which were far more serious than what Schwartz supposedly witnessed; in fact, the very night Stride and Eddowes were killed another women was murdered by having her throat cut.Therefore, it makes no sense that Stride was killed because her assailant was fearful that a minor assault would result in him being accused of being JtR. In fact, if that were the case then someone who wasn't JtR would have just as strong a motive to commit murder, I.e because of fear of false accusations.

As to the bruising on the shoulders, this was clearly not the result of an impact injury, I.e being thrown to the ground, and they may, in any event, have been old injuries. Dr Phillips stated: "They were what we call pressure marks...They were not what are ordinarily called bruises; neither is there any abrasion. Each shoulder was about equally marked."

And when asked by a juror how recently the marks had been caused, Dr Phillips responded, "That is rather difficult to say."

I don't buy the bruising coincidence interpretation. Schwartz was not aware of the pathology report and they where not aware of Schwartz. In fact he comes later. That's the sort of thing we look for in corroboration of accounts that say the same thing but from different perspectives.

Carrying a knife and assaulting a prostitute shortly after the other ripper murders is a guaranteed very big problem for the person found in that position.

In fact its actively sought after on these boards. Suspects taken into custody with knives.

We know whoever killed Stride absolutely must have been carrying one.

[Harry D]

As I've noted before, I think JtR was an organized killer.

Hello, John G.

As you know, I beg to differ. I think the Ripper murders were mostly characteristic of a 'disorganized killer'. When you look at the FBI's definitions, the Ripper falls into one category more than the other. Problem is that 'disorganized killer' seems to instantly evoke images of Richard Chase: a raving lunatic who made no attempt at subterfuge, when there are clearly different levels of disorganization, and that isn't to say that a disorganized killer cannot have organized traits, or vice-versa. Of course, this kind of terminology is an oversimplification of human psychology, but as a baseline it can give us a rough idea of the kind of murderer we're dealing with.

[Batman]

Double event

The double event is a classic example of SKs who when compromised during one attempted murder go on to directly murder someone else a very short time later. Examples are tenfold on this.

[c.d.]

There where lots of arrests made during the Whitechapel murders and thousands of people questioned. There where nearly lynchings and almost daily cases of someone being hunted by the maddening crowd over less. Just simply someone looking strange was enough, let alone someone assaulting women.

Pizer is a good example of this. Schwartz's testimony is the sort of thing Pizer was known for. Pizer was a major JtR candidate and if it wasn't for his alibi, what would have become of him?

She was thrown down on the ground. Hence why we have the shoulder bruising in the forensics. I don't know what sort of an attack resulting in shoulder bruising wouldn't constitute someone being assaulted.

What the ripper had to fear was being discovered with a knife on him, on the streets at night, in close proximity to where an assault had taken place. His only option is to ditch the weapon and not get caught with it. However given that investigators actively searched areas for clues, it would surely turn up in no time like the bloody apron.

So what's his options once he thrown a women to the ground this way?

He can silence her or not. One or the other, really.

If he silences her, he can walk away without her screaming JtR and nobody to ID him. If he doesn't, he will have to leg it and ditch the knife.

The former was obviously selected and more to the point - he got away with it, even after having been seen Schwartz.

How would she know if he were the Ripper if he simply walked away after throwing her to the ground? You keep incorporating the throwing to the ground with the murder when they are two separate events. As far as somebody ID'ing him we still have Schwartz and Pipe Man. Again, I have to repeat, if the B.S. man walks away after Schwartz leaves then he is only guilty of throwing a woman to the ground nothing more.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

There where lots of arrests made during the Whitechapel murders and thousands of people questioned. There where nearly lynchings and almost daily cases of someone being hunted by the maddening crowd over less. Just simply someone looking strange was enough, let alone someone assaulting women.

Pizer is a good example of this. Schwartz's testimony is the sort of thing Pizer was known for. Pizer was a major JtR candidate and if it wasn't for his alibi, what would have become of him?

She was thrown down on the ground. Hence why we have the shoulder bruising in the forensics. I don't know what sort of an attack resulting in shoulder bruising wouldn't constitute someone being assaulted.

What the ripper had to fear was being discovered with a knife on him, on the streets at night, in close proximity to where an assault had taken place. His only option is to ditch the weapon and not get caught with it. However given that investigators actively searched areas for clues, it would surely turn up in no time like the bloody apron.

So what's his options once he thrown a women to the ground this way?

He can silence her or not. One or the other, really.

If he silences her, he can walk away without her screaming JtR and nobody to ID him. If he doesn't, he will have to leg it and ditch the knife.

The former was obviously selected and more to the point - he got away with it, even after having been seen Schwartz.

Hi Batman
while its possible your above idea may have been the motivation for BS man going to go on to kill stride, I find it highly doubtful, so going to have to disagree with you on this one.

In all likelihood BS man killed stride out of anger and frustrstion (and of course because he was a killer at heart) because after spending considerable time, and possibly money,on her he simply lost his temper.