The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Wickerman]

Okay you originally said 5, now 15.

You're right.
I deserve a good thrashing for that.

We are talking about the same area (literally a few feet). That is an important factor is discounting the 'other' killer hypothesis.

Between the altercation, and where the body was found yes, not much more than about 5 feet (I mean 5 this time).
Though plenty of time to cross the road and back, or go deep into the back of the yard with a client.

But then, where did Schwartz get the time from, it appears he came down Berner St. in the same direction as Diemschitz did, so possibly passed the same clock in the same corner shop.
That would mean he reached the yard a minute or two after 12:45, ....all this assumes that the clock was even correct.

[Wickerman]

I doubt she was doing that.

"No, not tonight, some other night"

That comment can be just as easy applied to the courting couple. They were stood at the same corner about the same time.

[c.d.]

I think this knocking to the ground has been exaggerated. A simple explanation could be that Stride took hold of a potential client who clearly didnt want to know and pushed her away knocking her to the ground.

But of course simple and plausible explanations are no what ripper researchers seek.

There are no forensics to match so why keep mentioning them

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

I agree with you completely on this one. The whole B.S. man/Stride encounter basically takes its significance from the fact that she was found dead shortly after and not really on what took place according to Schwartz. It's interesting that people like to throw around terms like "attack" and "brutal assault" but when you ask them what the penalty would most likely be if B.S. man were arrested solely on what Schwartz said he saw they all seem to be agree that it would be basically don't do it again or a small fine. We simply have no way of knowing what the B.S. man's intent was.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

Well, I have read some of their personal stories.

Know of any with money?

Cheers.
LC

Whenever you post this Lynn, I always have to respond that she was not a $500 a night Vegas call girl. If they could afford a drink or food then surely they could have afforded her services.

c.d.

[c.d.]

The last person seen assaulting anyone as close to where the body was found only minutes before it is found is defacto prime suspect. Not even a person of interest. If the forensics match then they are in a lot of difficulty. If not, they are still in a lot of difficulty unless said forensics can actually falsify that they did it. Good alibis can do it also.

I think Stride's movements are very well known that night due to the number of people there, both before and after, it seems unlikely JtR could have attacked Stride without someone taking notice.

If the forensics pointed away from BSman as some people claim, then he would have nothing to fear. Yet we know in the real world that BSman would do his best to make sure nobody would connect him to this, ever, because of what it naturally infers.

Hello Batman,

Are you suggesting that the B.S. man went on to kill Liz after being seen which is of course a hanging offense so that she wouldn't identify him as the man who pushed her to the ground which is probably a don't do it again offense? That is all he is guilty of at that point when Schwartz vacates the scene.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Whenever you post this Lynn, I always have to respond that she was not a $500 a night Vegas call girl. If they could afford a drink or food then surely they could have afforded her services.

c.d.

There used to be an old prostitute price list 3 pence a look 6 pence a touch !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

There used to be an old prostitute price list 3 pence a look 6 pence a touch !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Can you put that in perspective comparing it to the price for food and drink?

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Can you put that in perspective comparing it to the price for food and drink?

c.d.

One pint of beer approx 3 pence in Victorian times

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[lynn cates]

trumped

Hello CD.

"I agree with you completely on this one. The whole B.S. man/Stride encounter basically takes its significance from the fact that she was found dead shortly after and not really on what took place according to Schwartz."

And that is why--in my humble opinion--the story was trumped up. With a wave of the hand it makes Liz the victim of a drunken lout, who was Gentile (hurled a racial slur), and none of us at the club. So you coppers stop harassing us and go find this villain.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

flowers

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"I always have to respond that she was not a $500 a night Vegas call girl."

Indeed. But surely her floral arrangement says something?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

forcing facts

Hello (yet again) CD.

"Are you suggesting that the B.S. man went on to kill Liz after being seen which is of course a hanging offense so that she wouldn't identify him as the man who pushed her to the ground which is probably a don't do it again offense?"

Hmm, this is the kind of internal inconsistency you get from trying to force facts to fit your view.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

You doubt it because it is a plausible explanation which isn't in line with what you want to believe.

What about "Go away and leave me alone I have a wife at home waiting for me"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I doubt it because the idea she is accosting men is in disagreement with one witness hearing her say ""No, not tonight, some other night". Then we have Schwartz who sees her being accosted. That 2 strikes against your assumption, Trevor.

Its a plausible explanation but the plausible alternative has more strength from the witness evidence to support it. We select that which has more evidence for it, which is why I dismiss the idea she is accosting people (a positive claim that isn't even neutral btw and has no evidence for it).

[Trevor Marriott]

I doubt it because the idea she is accosting men is in disagreement with one witness hearing her say ""No, not tonight, some other night". Then we have Schwartz who sees her being accosted. That 2 strikes against your assumption, Trevor.

Its a plausible explanation but the plausible alternative has more strength from the witness evidence to support it. We select that which has more evidence for it, which is why I dismiss the idea she is accosting people (a positive claim that isn't even neutral btw and has no evidence for it).

But like all witness testimony in this case it was never tested as to its accuracy or reliability. It has simply muddied the waters by allowing researchers to draw perhaps the wrong inferences from the chain of events.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

Hello Batman,

Are you suggesting that the B.S. man went on to kill Liz after being seen which is of course a hanging offense so that she wouldn't identify him as the man who pushed her to the ground which is probably a don't do it again offense? That is all he is guilty of at that point when Schwartz vacates the scene.

c.d.

Hello c.d,

I think in today's world what he did constitutes a serious assault. I think in 1888 Whitechapel, nobody cared until the murder of MJK when the political establishment and Monarchy caved in and had to address the major problem of the deep divisions over wealth and how the poor just can't be swept under the carpet. So I agree with George Bernard Shaw on this.

I think BSman is likely JtR. That evening for fun some patrons shouted out to her that JtR would get her. She left quickly with the man she was with after they said that. Somewhere shortly after Stride is found dead in the alley. We learn that her throat is slashed.

Then shortly after, Eddowes is murdered and displays mutilation.

Based on time factors, the contemporary view was that there was a double event. So why no mutilation with Stride? The answer is in that JtR appears to have been disturbed.

Eddowes shows his intent was not satisfied with Stride, but she was targetted by him.

It is not the first time JtR attacked someone in close proximity to where people are. Chapman was murdered in a backyard next to fence with someone on the other side who only needed to look over and see the murder. In Mitre Sq., it is likely a PC's light-beam didn't stretch far enough to see a murder taking place. People where seen with MJK going into her room shortly before she was murdered. With all the witness testimony together and what they agree on, you actually get a good idea of what this guy looked like. Close to how Joseph Barnett would have looked.

I think Liz Stride didn't like the look of the person she met. I think he tried to get her to go somewhere she didn't want to go and this drew her suspicion to him, especially in light of the Ripper comments earlier. The only people to get a really good look at the ripper are dead, by his hand. I think he tried it, chanced an attack in the darkness, but didn't see Schwartz coming. As soon as he was seen by this very Jewish looking man, he shouted Lipski, and pipeman came out of somewhere he was standing lighting his pipe. JtR seeing there was too much going on dragged her around the corner and killed her how he would the others, but leaves because he has been compromised. You are asking why not just leave her alone? I think because she was so suspect of this guy, he would have been mobbed.

Because he hasn't struck west before, he decides to head that way, where he will find himself walking into the visual range of Eddowes who has just left the drunk tank.

The fact is, whatever played out with Stride, JtR remained unidentified. So it must have worked.

[Jon Guy]

You doubt it because it is a plausible explanation which isn't in line with what you want to believe.

What about "Go away and leave me alone I have a wife at home waiting for me"

Where in Schwartz`s account (either Police statement or Star story) does it support your idea ?