The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Batman]

This is just a tentative suggestion, but I feel that you ought to be a little more critical of Gordon's theories! As I've argued before, The Torso Killer was not JtR, and dumping body parts in the garden of Shelly's ancestor is perfectly consistent with his tendency to play macabre jokes.

I am, in my own way, and haven't discussed them on this board.

Anyway I take it you have understood my point about SKs can be racists too.

[c.d.]

Basically it is about recognizing the alternatives for what they are. In this case it is yet another coincidence argument that Stride was attacked by someone else minutes before JtR attacked her.

How do we know that she was attacked? Schwartz only says that he saw a woman being pushed to the ground? Why couldn't that have simply been a minor dust up and in par with a lone woman late at night and men who have been drinking?

[Batman]

Hello Lynn,

That's very generous of you, but I'm beginning to sense that Batman doesn't quite see things the way I do. I have also concluded that many of his/ Gordon's ideas are not exactly mainstream in the world of Ripperology!

Well with respect to the C5, GSG, Lipski, Schwartz, the position I hold certainly is conventional and contemporary and found in most of the popular books on the subject.

None of which are barriers to saying JtR killed more people.

I don't know which way you see things. You haven't presented me with your alternative.

[Batman]

How do we know that she was attacked? Schwartz only says that he saw a woman being pushed to the ground? Why couldn't that have simply been a minor dust up and in par with a lone woman late at night and men who have been drinking?

She was thrown to the ground in Schwartz's account. Even for 1888 Whitechapel I think a Man vs Woman throw-down would be considered assault.

It is actually noted though from the witnesses who reportedly saw this in addition to the Schwartz, that they thought it just a couple fighting, and in those days probably wasn't considered an assault, especially if she was his wife.

[John G]

Well with respect to the C5, GSG, Lipski, Schwartz, the position I hold certainly is conventional and contemporary and found in most of the popular books on the subject.

None of which are barriers to saying JtR killed more people.

I don't know which way you see things. You haven't presented me with your alternative.

Well, I don't think many would argue that JtR and Torso were one and the same killer. And I may be completely wrong about this, but I seriously doubt that there is much support for the proposition that "JtR was harvesting sexual parts from prostitutes to replace those on a corpse he was keeping." It certainly seems a somewhat unusual idea to me, anyway. Have you considered the possibility that some of your thinking might be slightly flawed?

[Batman]

Well, I don't think many would argue that JtR and Torso were one and the same killer. And I may be completely wrong about this, but I seriously doubt that there is much support for the proposition that "JtR was harvesting sexual parts from prostitutes to replace those on a corpse he was keeping." It certainly seems a somewhat unusual idea to me, anyway.

Unusual absolutely. Then there are people like Ed Gein.

The things you mentioned aren't mainstream but can be built on without modifying the contemporary sources.

[Batman]

Even Abberline appears to have favoured a Jew as the killer, and he was the man who suggested that "Lipski" was an antisimetic taunt directed at Schwartz.

With Hutchinsons testimony that appears to be the case. Also his views on Chapman might be seen as consistent with this as Chapman claimed to be a Jew but wasn't.

Surpringly enough I once figured that JtR was angry at Jews because he may have been foreign looking or hated the fact he had to pretend to be one to get ahead in life.

[John G]

She was thrown to the ground in Schwartz's account. Even for 1888 Whitechapel I think a Man vs Woman throw-down would be considered assault.

It is actually noted though from the witnesses who reportedly saw this in addition to the Schwartz, that they thought it just a couple fighting, and in those days probably wasn't considered an assault, especially if she was his wife.

I agree that this incident would constitute an assault, albeit not a serious assault, at common law. However, considering the fact that Stride was seen by a number of witnesses that night in the company of male companions, I think it perfectly reasonable to conclude that she could have been killed by one of those suspects. Or she might have been killed by whoever she appeared to be waiting for by the club gates. Or Schwarz lied.

I think any if those explanations are preferable to BS man being Stride's killer.

[Wickerman]

Basically it is about recognizing the alternatives for what they are. In this case it is yet another coincidence argument that Stride was attacked by someone else minutes before JtR attacked her.

If Swanson was prepared to allow for the possibility, why can't you?
Are you saying coincidences do not happen?

Ever read about the one who was assaulted in the street, having their pocket picked by one who came to offer help?
It's all about opportunism. Women were frequently battered about by drunks or bully's, here we have one that was murdered 5 minutes later.

[Batman]

If Swanson was prepared to allow for the possibility, why can't you?

I never said it was impossible, just unlikely.

In fact the people using the 'impossible' argument are connected with the cachous not Schwartz, i.e - its impossible not to spill sweets in a struggle etc.

Are you saying coincidences do not happen?

Nope. I am saying multiple coincidences to explain something or explain something away is highly unlikely.

Ever read about the one who was assaulted in the street, having their pocket picked by one who came to offer help? It's all about opportunism. Women were frequently battered about by drunks or bully's, here we have one that was murdered 5 minutes later.

According to this though a person who is seen to be attacked and who is dead 5 minutes later is equally as likely to have killed by anyone else other than the attacker.

It is simply much more likely the person who attacked her is the one who killed her.

Some people don't even die on the spot and take hours, days a week to die after an assault.

Again if you want to see 'impossibilities' being raised, its not in the Schwartz camp.

[lynn cates]

reck the rede

Hello John.

"If the police seriously believed that JtR was antisemitic, can you explain why both Swanson and Anderson considered Kosminski such a strong suspect? In fact, both of the aforementioned officers, who were leading the inquiry, seem to have little doubt that he was JtR."

Not bad. Robby Burns would be proud. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

summary

Hello CD.

"The conclusion that the killer was anti-semitic is based upon the belief that:

1. the killer wrote the GSG which may or may not be the case;

2. the GSG is anti-semitic which may or may not be the case (citing the opinion of Warren and others is not proof since they did not write it. Only the author knows for sure what he intended);

3. Schwartz was the recipient of an anti-semitic slur which may or may not be the case since he himself was not sure.

Hardly a rock solid foundation for concluding that the killer is anti-semitic."

Excellent summary.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Klosowski

Hello J.

"Even Abberline appears to have favoured a Jew as the killer, and he was the man who suggested that "Lipski" was an antisimetic taunt directed at Schwartz."

I thought he favoured Klosowski?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

problems

Hello John. Thanks.

"That's very generous of you, but I'm beginning to sense that Batman doesn't quite see things the way I do."

Disagreements are NEVER a problem. However, mere assertion, constantly reiterating old material which has been refuted, and internal inconsistency ARE problems.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Gee, what coincidences.

Hello Jon. Regarding coincidences, I'm sure you've seen the list of them between Liz and Elizabeth Watts?

Cheers.
LC