The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Wickerman]

I don't think this argument is at all tenable. The Official Report states: "It will be observed that allowing for differences of opinion between the PC Schwartz as to the apparent age and height of the man each saw with the woman whose body they both identified there are serious differences in the description of dress:- thus the PC describes the dress of the man whom he saw as black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, while Schwartz describes the dress of the man he saw as dark jacket black cap with peak, so that at least it is rendered doubtful whether they are describing the same man."


Neither can Schwartz's evidence be easily reconciled with that of William Marshall, as Marshall's suspect had light trousers, whereas BS man is described as having dark trousers.

Moreover, the impression of other witnesses, i.e. Marshall, Best and Gardener and PC Smith, is that the suspects they saw with Stride were respectable dressed, whereas I don't get the impression that there was anything that was very respectable about BS man. In fact, Best and Gardener and Marshall all agree that their suspects didn't look like the type to be kissing and cuddling Stride. I doubt that's remotely the impression Schwartz had of BS man!

Furthermore, Marshall also described a suspect with a mild-mannered voice, sounding like an educated man, and with the appearance of a clerk. Does this really sound remotely like drunken BS man, with his shouts of "Lipski". It is submitted that both in his manner, and in his actions, i.e. the tussle with Stride, he comes across as a complete ruffian; the antithesis of Marshall's man.

And then PC Smith and William Marshall both describe clean shaven suspects, whereas BS man had a moustache.

James Brown's evidence also conflicts with Schwartz. He claimed that he also saw Stride, or someone he believed to be Stride, with a suspect at 12:45- the same time as Schwartz's sighting. Even if he saw a different couple, it doesn't explain why he failed to see or hear the altercation witnessed by Schwartz, or why this other couple failed to notice anything, It also doesn't explain why this other couple failed to come forward, i.e. for elimination purposes, assuming they were not Stride and a suspect.

I would conclude that it is Schwartz's suspect that is difficult to reconcile with suspects described by other witnesses. Clearly they are describing respectably dressed, even educated men. Whereas, in contrast, BS man simply comes across as a drunken lout.

Very good summary John.

Just a point on the "clean shaven", I think you will find this is a reference to the chin, I wasn't sure if you meant that or not. There are descriptions of men given where a suspect has both a moustache and is still "clean shaven". Also, why this PC Smith suspect was given a deerstalker hat is a mystery, the first reports have him wearing a hard felt hat, which make me think this may have been the same man Stride was with at the Bricklayers Arms.

Even though I can't dismiss Schwartz as a witness, I think your summary is food for thought.

[c.d.]

Not if you select my model.

You did read it because you quoted it -> http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...postcount=1066#

... her cries muted due to compression on her voice box from the scarf...

But nobody hears the sound of an argument either which you would expect if this were some kind of domestic dispute.

c.d.

[John G]

Very good summary John.

Just a point on the "clean shaven", I think you will find this is a reference to the chin, I wasn't sure if you meant that or not. There are descriptions of men given where a suspect has both a moustache and is still "clean shaven". Also, why this PC Smith suspect was given a deerstalker hat is a mystery, the first reports have him wearing a hard felt hat, which make me think this may have been the same man Stride was with at the Bricklayers Arms.

Even though I can't dismiss Schwartz as a witness, I think your summary is food for thought.

Thanks Jon. Yes, I wasn't aware that "clean shaven" referred to the chin. However, Marshall said that he didn't think his suspect had any "whiskers", whilst PC Smith, referring to his suspect at the inquest, said, "he had no whiskers." I believe "whiskers" is an archaic word for a moustache.

[Batman]

If he was following Stride, waiting for the right time to strike, it is inconceivable that he wouldn't have noticed Schwartz and Pipeman, who must have been stood just a few feet away.

What is the witness testimony for this?

Schwartz was behind BSman before he attacked her and only saw pipeman step out into view after the attack.

If she dropped the sweets in mud then she has killed off the return option to cool him down.

[John G]

What is the witness testimony for this?

Schwartz was behind BSman before he attacked her and only saw pipeman step out into view after the attack.

If she dropped the sweets in mud then she has killed off the return option to cool him down.

Are you suggesting that Pipeman was hiding? Surely he must have been close by. I mean, in the official record he's described as being on the opposite side of the road. I was also responding to your suggestion that BS man was waiting for the right time to strike. Well, if that's a remotely conceivable hypothesis I would suggest that, at the very least, he would have carefully taken note of who exactly was on the street.

[Batman]

It's night.

[John G]

What is the witness testimony for this?

Schwartz was behind BSman before he attacked her and only saw pipeman step out into view after the attack.

If she dropped the sweets in mud then she has killed off the return option to cool him down.

Well, if it was that dark one wonders how Schwartz saw anything at all. You know what? Maybe he didn't!

[Michael W Richards]

Well, if it was that dark one wonders how Schwartz saw anything at all. You know what? Maybe he didn't!

And maybe that's why he is absent in any and all records of the Inquest into the actual murder...

Anyone who figures Schwartz was in on the real truth seems to forget this little bit of history. Take him and his story out of the equation and you have a scenario that matches non-club witnesses to a T. Leave him in and you sure will have some "splainin" to do.

Cheers

[John G]

And maybe that's why he is absent in any and all records of the Inquest into the actual murder...

Anyone who figures Schwartz was in on the real truth seems to forget this little bit of history. Take him and his story out of the equation and you have a scenario that matches non-club witnesses to a T. Leave him in and you sure will have some "splainin" to do.

Cheers

Hello Michael,

Yes, I agree. It is Schwartz's evidence that seems incongruous. In fact, in the Star report isn't BS man described as being of "theatrical appearance", and Pipeman being from "a similar grade of society"? I wonder if anyone has considered that JtR could be two killers; maybe Oscar Wilde and Lord Alfred Douglas working together? Someone should tip-off Patricia Cornwell!

[lynn cates]

answer

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"As to the models. They are completely different models Lynn. Your knife attack occurs before the victim is lying on the ground. The conclusion says the knife attack occurred after the victim was lying on the ground."

Who cares about the conclusion? The conclusion also called Kate possibly imitation. Do you accept THAT?

Now name ONE piece of evidence that necessitates her being fully prone when cut?

"This is because the blood evidence doesn't support an upright or falling knife attack which would display exactly that. Blood on her front. Blood on her side. Blood on the wall. More blood on the scarf etc."

I agree about standing. But NOT about being near the ground with her neck aimed at the ground.

"The scarf argument despite its lack of blood was used regularly by the Stride doubters on these forums to say it 'captured' the blood as she was attacked from behind. It should have been obvious to the pathologists if it was used that way, but it was only on further careful examination that they connected the slice in the scarf to her wounds."

But STILL have NOT answered my question about why my cut can't happen without blood but yours can.

I want an answer.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mud

Hello (again) Batman. Thanks.

If Liz had been on her back when Dimshits found her, she would have had mud there.

I have corrected you on this before, but you ignore it.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Thanks Jon. Yes, I wasn't aware that "clean shaven" referred to the chin. However, Marshall said that he didn't think his suspect had any "whiskers", whilst PC Smith, referring to his suspect at the inquest, said, "he had no whiskers." I believe "whiskers" is an archaic word for a moustache.

Hi John.
Actually, any facial hair from sideburns to a full beard.

a. whiskers The hair on a man's cheeks and chin.
b. A single hair of a beard or mustache.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whiskers

Just a few quotes from the Casebook Press section:
"He had dark whiskers and a small moustache, and was carrying a bundle."

" He had a heavy moustache, curled up, dark eyes, and bushy eyebrows. He had no side whiskers and his chin was clean shaven."

"...complexion dark; no whiskers; dark moustache;..."

[Wickerman]

... I wonder if anyone has considered that JtR could be two killers;...

Someone, several months ago asked that same question about BS-man & Pipeman, and if they might have been working together.

I don't think so, but I wonder if anyone is familiar with the Mylett case.

Mr Charles Ptolomey....having seen two seamen accost the woman near where she was discovered dead..(and).. made the following statement to a reporter yesterday...."Upon going up England-row (nearly opposite Clark's Yard) I noticed two sailors. The shorter one was speaking to the deceased, and the tall one was walking up and down.....
Then I heard the woman say several times 'No! no! no!' and the short sailor spoke in a low tone. The tall one was about 5 ft 11 in. He looked like a Yankee. The shorter one was about 5 ft 7 in..."
Daily Chronicle, 29 Dec. 1888.

It reminded me of BS-man & Pipeman.

[Batman]

Hello (again) Batman. Thanks.

If Liz had been on her back when Dimshits found her, she would have had mud there.

I have corrected you on this before, but you ignore it.

Cheers.
LC

You mean your "mud only on the left side" hypothesis?

It failed remember...

Dr. Phillips - "Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud."

You also have this idea about mud being evenly dispersed on the ground or something.

Anyway after all the Qs and As are given the inquest forms a conclusion:

The Coroner's conclusions "...it was clear from the appearance of the blood on the ground that the throat was not cut until after she was actually on her back."

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"As to the models. They are completely different models Lynn. Your knife attack occurs before the victim is lying on the ground. The conclusion says the knife attack occurred after the victim was lying on the ground."

Who cares about the conclusion? The conclusion also called Kate possibly imitation. Do you accept THAT?

People who study the contemporary case would care about that conclusion. I know you don't like it.

The conclusion doesn't say Stride or Eddowes was killed by possible imitator. It weighs up that alternative and firmly rejects it.

"There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator; BUT there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted, so as to cause instant death and prevent blood from soiling the operator, and the same daring defiance of immediate detection, which, unfortunately for the peace of the inhabitants and trade of the neighbourhood, had hitherto been only too successful.

Again we don't need Schwartz to find this directly linked to JtRs previous crimes.