The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Batman]

But in YOUR model, it is used to lift her head and cut, yes? Else, how does the scarf get frayed? And in my model, it pulls her off balance.
Cheers.
LC

In my model BSMAN throws Stride to the ground, stunning her. He shouts Lipski at Schwartz who is passing by. She tries to cry out, but not loudly, because he is already gripping her scarf and neck, lifts a little and drags her mostly on her left side, 2-3 feet around the open gate, her cries muted due to compression on her voice box from the scarf.

Before she knows what is happening, he is down at her right upper side, still holding the scarf tight and makes a quick deep incision on the left, making sure he gets the carotid artery which will gush the moment he makes contact, the blade catches part the scarf while cutting through the right side completing the cut and will be less bloody because of the speed at which blood through pressure is already exiting the left side of wound.

Knowing he has been seen and is close to too much activity, he rolls her on her left into more darkness and just walks 11-15 minutes West because geographically he hasn't killed here before. At this point Eddowes has just been released from the drunk tank and would fall into the visual range of anybody who had walked in that direction having left Mitre Sq at the time Stride died.

Sorry guys, but Stride non-canonical? The coincidences galore really need to pile up to reject Stride.

[John G]

In my model BSMAN throws Stride to the ground, stunning her. He shouts Lipski at Schwartz who is passing by. She tries to cry out, but not loudly, because he is already gripping her scarf and neck, lifts a little and drags her mostly on her left side, 2-3 feet around the open gate, her cries muted due to compression on her voice box from the scarf.

Before she knows what is happening, he is down at her right upper side, still holding the scarf tight and makes a quick deep incision on the left, making sure he gets the carotid artery which will gush the moment he makes contact, the blade catches part the scarf while cutting through the right side completing the cut and will be less bloody because of the speed at which blood through pressure is already exiting the left side of wound.

Knowing he has been seen and is close to too much activity, he rolls her on her left into more darkness and just walks 11-15 minutes West because geographically he hasn't killed here before. At this point Eddowes has just been released from the drunk tank and would fall into the visual range of anybody who had walked in that direction having left Mitre Sq at the time Stride died.

Sorry guys, but Stride non-canonical? The coincidences galore really need to pile up to reject Stride.

Let me see if I've understood you correctly. You now believe that her killer dragged her threw the gate with the scarf? But surely she would have instinctively raised her hands to her throat, where she was being strangled.

[Batman]

Hi CD



It would be a natural act.



You misunderstood me, you are more likely to break a wrist by falling on an open hand or palm.

Cheap breath mints to you maybe ... she may have had to sell her body to get hold of them, and perhaps she wanted them for confidence when chatting up men.

Anyway, why drop them in the mud when she probably thought she was only been thrown to the ground.
She probably didn`t think she was going to be murdered.

They even scrap over a piece of soap or a broken mirror piece.

[John G]

Hi CD



It would be a natural act.



You misunderstood me, you are more likely to break a wrist by falling on an open hand or palm.

Cheap breath mints to you maybe ... she may have had to sell her body to get hold of them, and perhaps she wanted them for confidence when chatting up men.

Anyway, why drop them in the mud when she probably thought she was only been thrown to the ground.
She probably didn`t think she was going to be murdered.

I'm not sure I've understood you correctly. Are you now suggesting that Stride was some kind of martial arts expert who new how to correctly break a fall? If, so I would be obliged if you could provide evidence of this.

What sort of martial arts training do you think she'd received? Judo? Aikido?

[Batman]

Let me see if I've understood you correctly. You now believe that her killer dragged her threw the gate with the scarf? But surely she would have instinctively raise her hands to her throat, where she was being strangled.

I always accepted the model I presented since I first read it in several mainstream JtR books.

The pressure on her neck was caused by a scarf not a set of hands, however yes she would have made some struggle for a second or so, but I think the speed at which JtR renders his victims unable to cope to be too fast for the type of response that could counter it. They are taken unexpectedly by too much of the surprise/shock. I think she just thought someone was trying to rob her.

[Jon Guy]

I'm not sure I've understood you correctly. Are you now suggesting that Stride was some kind of martial arts expert who new how to correctly break a fall? If, so I would be obliged if you could provide evidence of this.

What sort of martial arts training do you think she'd received? Judo? Aikido?

Hi John

I was merely pointing out to those whom think everybody drops everything in their hands when they lose their balance, that it is actually the preferred method to land in certain contact sports.

Hope this is clear now.

[John G]

I always accepted the model I presented since I first read it in several mainstream JtR books.

The pressure on her neck was caused by a scarf not a set of hands, however yes she would have made some struggle for a second or so, but I think the speed at which JtR renders his victims unable to cope to be too fast for the type of response that could counter it. They are taken unexpectedly by too much of the surprise/shock. I think she just thought someone was trying to rob her.

I accept that JtR's MO involves quickly incapacitating his victim's, i.e. in a surprise blitz attack. But there lies the problem. Clumsy BS man clearly telegraphs his intentions, putting Stride on alert.

Thus, in any direct assault Stride's instinct would surely be to reach out with both arms to protect herself. If we consider the detail of the police report, we have BS man struggling to pull her into the street. We can infer this, because he clearly doesn't succeed. Therefore, Stride is alerted to the man's intentions and I would have though that she would been likely to have used both hands to resist, thus dropping the cachous.

Of course, she is then spun round and thrown to the ground, but in this scenario the cachous still survive in tacked. However, as I've noted before, her natural instinct would surely be to open her hands to break the fall. Okay, I accept that in theory she could have broken the fall in some other way, but she wasn't a martial arts expert who knew the correct way to fall, so I think this unlikely.

And clearly Dr Philips thinks it unlikely as well. Dr Blackwell is of no assistance here, because he clearly believes she was attacked from behind.
Furthermore, in your scenario we have to assume that she made no effort to raise her hands to her throat as she's being dragged into the yard. Now considering that BS man, up to this point, has clearly telegraphed his intentions, and presented himself as a clear threat, I think this unlikely as well.

Of course, there is also the added problem of nobody hearing anything, even though Mrs D was probably in the kitchen with the window open.

The most obvious scenario is that he catches Stride, completely by surprise, from behind, as suggested by Drs Phillips and Blackwell. As I've noted in an earlier post, I think Stride probably entered the passage, with her assailant, whilst being relaxed. However, something then happened to make her feel uneasy. She then made a quick decision to turn around and head for the exit, possibly instinctively clenching her fist, because she would be tense at this point.

Her killer then reacts quickly, catching her from behind, pulling her to the ground, and cutting her throat.

[Batman]

Of course, there is also the added problem of nobody hearing anything, even though Mrs D was probably in the kitchen with the window open.

Not if you select my model.

You did read it because you quoted it -> http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...postcount=1066#

... her cries muted due to compression on her voice box from the scarf...

[Batman]

The most obvious scenario is that he catches Stride, completely by surprise, from behind, as suggested by Drs Phillips and Blackwell.

Can you quote that?

As for Lynn's model, I leave you with this from the actual inquest to think about...



She was still holding in her left hand a packet of cachous, and there was a bunch of flowers still pinned to her dress front. If she had been forcibly placed on the ground, as Dr. Phillips opines, it was difficult to understand how she failed to attract attention, as it was clear from the appearance of the blood on the ground that the throat was not cut until after she was actually on her back.

[John G]

Can you quote that?

As for Lynn's model, I leave you with this from the actual inquest to think about...



She was still holding in her left hand a packet of cachous, and there was a bunch of flowers still pinned to her dress front. If she had been forcibly placed on the ground, as Dr. Phillips opines, it was difficult to understand how she failed to attract attention, as it was clear from the appearance of the blood on the ground that the throat was not cut until after she was actually on her back.

Dr Blackwell opines: " I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf...and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

Now this clearly implies an assault from behind, otherwise with a frontal assault he would have been pulling her forward, not backwards; or alternatively pushing her backwards.

Dr Phillips simply states that he believes she was "seized by the shoulders and placed on the ground". Note he says placed and not thrown. As I've noted before, when asked by the jury foreman "Do you think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?" He replied, "That is an inference, which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw."

[John G]

Not if you select my model.

You did read it because you quoted it -> http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...postcount=1066#

... her cries muted due to compression on her voice box from the scarf...

But in your model she's stunned after initially being thrown to the ground. presumably that explains why she failed to cry out, escape, or resit. However, it's another assumption. I think that simply removing BS man from the equation allows for a far simpler explanation: Occam's Razor

[lynn cates]

bloody remarks

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"I know you are trying to persuade me that your knife attack wouldn't get blood on the scarf or on her front, or on the wall. I don't accept that."

I don't understand. How can you believe her scarf was pulled from the front and cut without blood, but not pulled from behind and cut without blood? Either BOTH will have blood or NEITHER.

"The moment the knife even so much as pierces that left cardioid artery you will get spray and the knife will have blood on it."

Agreed. But how does your version help?

"Since the pathologist actually matched the slice on the scarf we know it was cut along with cut that did the left carotid."

Absolutely. But no blood on the scarf.

How do you explain the scarf's knot tight and to the left?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

needs work

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"In my model BSMAN throws Stride to the ground, stunning her. He shouts Lipski at Schwartz who is passing by. She tries to cry out, but not loudly, because he is already gripping her scarf and neck, lifts a little and drags her mostly on her left side, 2-3 feet around the open gate, her cries muted due to compression on her voice box from the scarf."

If this were correct:

1. Why is the scarf's knot not to the RIGHT?

2. Ever try to drag one on a side? Hard work. Back is natural.

3. Why does her dress show no signs of dragging?

"Before she knows what is happening, he is down at her right upper side, still holding the scarf tight and makes a quick deep incision on the left,"

Oh? Why no blood on the scarf? (heh-heh)

"making sure he gets the carotid artery which will gush the moment he makes contact, the blade catches part the scarf while cutting through the right side completing the cut and will be less bloody because of the speed at which blood through pressure is already exiting the left side of wound."

But you said that blood would be on the knife the second it made contact.

This is no more/less likely to alter the blood situation.

". . . he rolls her on her left . . ."

So why no mud on her back?

This needs a LOT of work.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

"Schwartz described a frontal blitz attack..."

No, Schwartz described a woman being thrown down. Blitz and attack are your words.

c.d.

[c.d.]

But in your model she's stunned after initially being thrown to the ground. presumably that explains why she failed to cry out, escape, or resit. However, it's another assumption. I think that simply removing BS man from the equation allows for a far simpler explanation: Occam's Razor

Yes, removing the B.S. man does solve a lot of problems. Three small cries seems a strange response to this brutal blitz attack that some people say took place. Her response seems more like surprise than anything else. More in line with her legs being caught up and she fell unexpectedly. Now Schwartz didn't speak English and he might not want to admit cowardice but you would think that Liz would turn to him for help (which should have been apparent despite the language barrier) if she felt her life was in danger or scream loudly towards the club but no one in the club heard anything. More and more the whole B.S. man thing seems just like a minor dust up and nothing more.

c.d.