The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[lynn cates]

kronos

Hello CD. Thanks.

Look at:

1. Israel's time.

2. The coroner's time.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

strangling

Hello John.

"Of course, JtR's MO was to suffocate the victims prior to cutting their throat, however, there doesn't seem to be any obvious signs of suffocation in Stride's case."

Nor Kate and "MJK."

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John.

"Of course, JtR's MO was to suffocate the victims prior to cutting their throat, however, there doesn't seem to be any obvious signs of suffocation in Stride's case."

Nor Kate and "MJK."

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

In the case of MJK it is possible that she was asleep when the assault took place. In such a situation, she would already be unconscious, or putting it more accurately, subconscious, so might the killer feel that suffocating her would be somewhat superfluous? And as she was attacked indoors he may have been less concerned about her crying out and attracting attention.

[Jon Guy]

Which tends to beg the question, why wasn't she resisting?

Was she unconscious at this point?

Hi Jon

The answer to this excellent question may be found with Alice McKenzie.

She too, was pushed down by the shoulders (similar bruising to Stride) and had her throat cut.
At the inquest the question was raised why McKenzie didn`t resist and the Doctors stated that it was probably through her being in shock.

[Batman]

Hello Lynn,

In the case of MJK it is possible that she was asleep when the assault took place. In such a situation, she would already be unconscious, or putting it more accurately, subconscious, so might the killer feel that suffocating her would be somewhat superfluous? And as she was attacked indoors he may have been less concerned about her crying out and attracting attention.

MJK had defensive wounds on her hands from putting up a struggle after the sheet was thrown over her head and the attack commenced. Again, this shows forensic awareness of arterial spray.

The killer then shifted her body on the bed, moving it away from the wall as noted by Philips from the stains.

[Batman]

exsanguination

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"The rest of us simply give Stride more credit than that."

Please speak for yourself. MANY posters understand forensics. You CLEARLY do not.

"Now as for attacks involving the rear. These are undone by the lack of any blood on the scarf and lack of arterial spray."

Nonsense. Her scarf was cut--just as in my reconstruction. Why not do one yourself? What are you afraid of, mate?

Cheers.
LC

Oh right, I am supposed to prove your ambiguous point again like the levitating sweets?

Actually your model isn't a rear attack, its a side attack. They are walking side by side when it takes place. I take issues with the heights of the 'actors' involved, I think you really need to be precise about that because the dynamics change, which isn't going to happen because you wanted to act in the reconstruction yourself.

As pointed out the scarf didn't catch any arterial spray yet it has been sliced.

The original argument for the rear attack was that the scarf gets pulled back and her throat is cut. The pathologist matched the scarf cut to the wound on her neck. So why doesn't the sliced scarf get blood on it once the throat is slit? As far as I remember what you guys settled on was Trevor Marriots claim that not all knife wounds to the cardioid artery will spray blood.

The fact is this scarf is evidence she was killed with a knife while lying on the ground. The killer first of all sliced her neck with forensic awareness in this position. As the blood left the carotid artery on the left side of her neck, the tissues on the right side [Dr. Phillips]"was more superficial, and tailed off to about two inches below the right angle of the jaw. The deep vessels on that side were uninjured. From this it was evident that the hemorrhage was caused through the partial severance of the left carotid artery".

JtR was so forensically aware, not only did he not get blood on himself, but managed to not get much, if any, blood on his victims either! He empties them of blood. This is called "exsanguination".

Lynn your model would have much more arterial spray than I think you are willing to accept. There is roughly a can of coke worth of fluid moving through that left artery per second. Even puncturing that artery is going to have fluid spraying everywhere immediately, let alone slicing it through.

Schwartz described a frontal blitz attack and Phillips recorded frontal chest bruising in additional shoulder bruising. Stride went down much like one would expect the others to have gone down. I don't believe JtR would ever take out a blade without first ensuring his intended victim was in his required position of prostrate on the ground. In fact, there is good evidence he strangles them this way first.

[lynn cates]

point

Hello John. Thanks.

Yes, possible. Still the point is that Polly and Annie are the ones who were clearly strangled.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Old Faithful

Hello batman. Thanks.

"As pointed out the scarf didn't catch any arterial spray yet it has been sliced."

Yes. And whether attacked fore aft or side, the fact remains. So how does another position help?

'The original argument for the rear attack was that the scarf gets pulled back and her throat is cut."

Yes. and the scarf is just below the cut--blood is spurting onto the ground. (See re-enactment.)

"The pathologist matched the scarf cut to the wound on her neck. So why doesn't the sliced scarf get blood on it once the throat is slit?"

Vide supra. And if she is lying on the ground when cut, why does:

1. The scarf have no blood

2. The ground not have blood everywhere--as from a geyser?

"The fact is this scarf is evidence she was killed with a knife while lying on the ground."

You are in jest? If the scarf can miss the spray on the ground, surely the same applies if the scarf is being pulled from behind?

"Lynn your model would have much more arterial spray than I think you are willing to accept. There is roughly a can of coke worth of fluid moving through that left artery per second. Even puncturing that artery is going to have fluid spraying everywhere immediately, let alone slicing it through."

In my model, the spray goes directly to ground then into the gutter. In your model, it would be like a geyser.

"In fact, there is good evidence he strangles them this way first."

No evidence of strangling AT ALL--except Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

forensics again

The cut on the scarf matched the wound!

Your model can't explain that at all.

[John G]

Hi Jon

The answer to this excellent question may be found with Alice McKenzie.

She too, was pushed down by the shoulders (similar bruising to Stride) and had her throat cut.
At the inquest the question was raised why McKenzie didn`t resist and the Doctors stated that it was probably through her being in shock.

Except, of course, if we accept the police report then the clear implication is that she did resist.

[Batman]

"In fact, there is good evidence he strangles them this way first."

No evidence of strangling AT ALL--except Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

You are incorrect.

There is every reason to believe that the scarf around her neck was tightened by her killer. This causes compression of the neck, i.e - strangulation.

Since you accept Nichols and Chapman where strangled you now have yet another piece of forensic evidence linking them to the killer of Stride.

The more you try to point away from JtR the more you end up pointing to him. Funny that.

[Jon Guy]

Hi CD

But that implies a conscious intention to do so knowing that you are going to be thrown to the ground. I doubt that Liz had time to make that decision.

It would be a natural act.

And even if she did, why would she do so? They were cheap breath mints not a family heirloom made of spun glass. Why take a chance on breaking your wrist as you yourself mention?

You misunderstood me, you are more likely to break a wrist by falling on an open hand or palm.

Cheap breath mints to you maybe ... she may have had to sell her body to get hold of them, and perhaps she wanted them for confidence when chatting up men.

Anyway, why drop them in the mud when she probably thought she was only been thrown to the ground.
She probably didn`t think she was going to be murdered.

[lynn cates]

cutting remarks

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"The cut on the scarf matched the wound! Your model can't explain that at all."

What the devil do you mean? Look at the knife in my hand. Now look at the scarf. Whilst the left hand pulls the scarf, the right cuts--and PRECISELY on the edge of the scarf.

Get your facts straight, lad!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

scarfing her down

Hello (again) Batman. Thanks.

"There is every reason to believe that the scarf around her neck was tightened by her killer. This causes compression of the neck, i.e - strangulation."

But in YOUR model, it is used to lift her head and cut, yes? Else, how does the scarf get frayed? And in my model, it pulls her off balance.

"Since you accept Nichols and Chapman where strangled you now have yet another piece of forensic evidence linking them to the killer of Stride."

Nonsense. Vide supra.

"The more you try to point away from JtR the more you end up pointing to him. Funny that."

The more you try to present "forensic evidence," the more you shoot yourself in the foot. Ludicrous that.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"The cut on the scarf matched the wound! Your model can't explain that at all."

What the devil do you mean? Look at the knife in my hand. Now look at the scarf. Whilst the left hand pulls the scarf, the right cuts--and PRECISELY on the edge of the scarf.

Get your facts straight, lad!

Cheers.
LC

First of all Lynn, nobody in your recreation can see what the devil you are doing after you pull out the knife because you filmed it in such a way we are looking at your back by this time. Most of the dynamics you are talking about here aren't visually available. What you are describing is from your own memory. Which kinda defeats the purpose of why we have forensic recreations.

I know you are trying to persuade me that your knife attack wouldn't get blood on the scarf or on her front, or on the wall. I don't accept that. The moment the knife even so much as pierces that left cardioid artery you will get spray and the knife will have blood on it.

Since the pathologist actually matched the slice on the scarf we know it was cut along with cut that did the left carotid.

The simplest, less complex, parsimonious answer to this is found in the inquest conclusions. Something you should look at again. That he displayed the same methods of injuring the person as per Nichols and Chapman.

That is, to get them down prostrate by a blitz frontal assault so that he can strangle them BEFORE deliberately cutting the neck through in such a way as to deplete the body quickly of blood so he can mutilate and harvest organs without getting blood on him.

If Stride was killed in a manner not by the hand of JtR you would expect more blood down their front and on them. This is what is catching the inquests attention and hence the conclusion.