The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Batman]

Inquest findings - she did not make use of it in self-defence.

All Schwartz described is a woman being thrown to ground, not that she got up. She was 2-3 feet away from where her body was found. All he had to do was lift the upper body by the back of her scarf and drag her 2 feet. Since one side of her clothes was CAKED in mud, seems logical to accept she went from point A to B of 2-3 feet by dragging by the UNBLOODIED scarf. Lift and drag 2-3 feet, turn right, kill and dump body.

We know the rear attack didn't happen because there is no blood on the scarf despite it being cut, meaning the cut happened while she was already bleeding out from another wound.

Its amazing the lengths though some people will go to tell us cachous can't be held tight, but then give us some very colourful explanations how a scarf doesn't capture blood from a rear attack.

Anyway, who saw Stride get up?

You don't need to open your palm to push yourself up.

You can use.
1. Base of a close fist.
2. Same, with elbows.
3. Knuckles.

The other hand is also free to support 1, 2, 3.

while the presence of the cachous in her hand showed that she did not make use of it in self-defence. - The Coroner

It like watching someone being attacked outside a public toilet cubicle and then later finding the body inside holding a pack of open cigarettes that didn't spill. She didn't make use of it in self-defence.

[John G]

Hi John.
Yes, Mortimer does say she saw Goldstein pass "previously", but I wasn't aware that she placed a time on that - what does "previously" mean?
Neither can I find anywhere that Goldstein gives a time.

Hi Jon,

Paul Begg ( 2004) refers to Goldstein: "He had left a coffee house in Spetacle Alley and passed Berner Street shortly before 1:00am". He cites a report by Chief Inspector Swanson and also Evening News, 1 October, 1888.

I've checked the Evening News on this site and there is a reference to Mortimer seeing Goldstein, however, she simply mentions seeing him shortly before she "turned in". However, Begg states that she also mentions hearing a pony and cart pass by 4 minutes later and remarked on it to her husband. If we assume this was Louis D passing at around 1:00 am, we can infer that Mortimer retired at about 12:56 and saw Goldstein shortly before this time.

I would further note that, in the Evening News report, she's quoted as saying that she heard a commotion shortly after she went indoors- she went back outside and was informed about the murder. This, of course, implies that she must have returned indoors, to retire for the night, shortly before 1:00am, and, as noted, she said that she saw Goldstein shortly before that time.

[lynn cates]

Are you suggesting cachous migrate?

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"I got it. You don't accept Dr.Blackwell (who was there), that as the force on the sweets in her hand diminished as she lay dying, likely unconscious, is why there wasn't a full grip upon his examination."

For the last time, I have NO idea what you mean?? There is no problem with her hand relaxing in death. But what do we get from that? That the cachous migrated from her palm upward to her thumb and forefinger? What do you mean, are they the African or European variety of cachous? (heh-heh)

"You don't go from a relaxed hand to a relaxed hand. Anyway should be obvious, but got it, its a mystery to you, even though the Jury asked Blackwell to explain this to them, as he did."

The only mystery is what the devil you are talking about. Your post is like the peace of God, for it passes understanding. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Sanders

Hello (again) Batman. Thanks.

"It seems everything they did suggested they accepted these as connections or else why bother with the investigative wild goose chase they documents over a period of months?"

Why did they spend so much time pursuing Sanders? One must follow up EVERY "lead"--good and poor alike.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Fumbleville

There is no evidence what-so-ever that people who fall hitting the ground will always fumble what they are holding, even if struck by person, projectile or even rammed by a vehicle demonstrated ever so well by people still clutching their handlebars while being attended too.

[lynn cates]

acute

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Very acute post--as always. There can be no doubt that being thrown to the ground--a la BSM--would have dislodged the cachous.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello CD. Thanks.

"A very simple and reasonable explanation would be that the B.S. man was not her killer."

Agreed. But if he existed, AND Israel spoke truly, he was.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello (again) CD.

"It seems that people keep talking about her holding the cachous in death which is not the point or they give examples of people holding on to things when they fall. But the things they mention like a purse or a beer can are things that can survive a fall as opposed to the cachous which were simply wrapped in tissue paper."

Quite. And, I might add, held between thumb and forefinger--just as one holds a coin before inserting into a vending machine.

All very simple.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reconstruction

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"There is no evidence what-so-ever that people who fall hitting the ground will always fumble what they are holding"

Well, they do IF it is held between the thumb and forefinger.

But why not do a reconstruction? Put your money where your mouth is?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

I think that your argument is dependant on too many assumptions.
Firstly, we would have to reject the official police report in favour if the press version-or at least selective parts of the press version.!

Using elements of a witness statement is not an assumption, John
I have not rejected any part of either Schwartz`s police or Star statement.
Maybe I have, but you`ll have to enlighten me.

Secondly, it assumes, presumably, that she had the cachous in her hand at the time Schwartz was present, even though this is something Schwartz make no mention of.!

Well, standing alone in the gateway would be a good time to take them out and eat one. Especially when she can see a potential customer walking down the street towards her.

Anyway, would Schwartz have been able to see them ?
What other minute details did Schwartz give in his statement ?

He was more concerned with the fracas that was unfolding in front of him.

Thirdly, it assumes that the precariously held cachous were not dislodged by the assault, !

Aha, the word precarious again :-)
Now, that is an assumption John !!

even though she was pushed with enough force to end up on her back, presumably. Dr Phillips seems to be of the opinion that being thrown down on the footway would have dislodged the cachous, !

No, he didn`t say that.

Fourthly, it assumes that JtR was having some sort of serial killers' vacation, or break from serial murders and eviscerations. Thus, having seen off Scwartz, instead of slitting Stride's throat he decides to go back and have an argument with her instead, no doubt berating her for having the audacity to disturb his serial killers' holiday.!

Warning - assumption alert !! ;-)

Fifthly, if he wasn't intending to mutilate anyone that night, who killed Kate Eddowes?!

Warning -another assumption alert

Sixthly, you assume that Mrs D wouldn't have heard anything from maybe a few feet/yards away, even though Schwartz did hear the quarrel whilst walking away.?!

John, with the greatest of respect you need to be able to see the difference between an assumption and a fact.

It is a fact that Mrs D didn`t hear anything !!

Seventhly, it means accepting that the couple referred to by Mortimer didn't hear or see anything, i.e the sound of the quarrel, even though they were stood only about 20 yards away..?!

They were stood around the corner, John, on another street.

Eigthly, It means rejecting the part of the newspaper report, which refers to Pipeman acting as an accomplice and rushing at Scwartz with a knife.!

Yes, I`ve already pointed out to you that this was probably journalistic sensationalism.

Ninethly, it assumes that Stride made no attemot to get up, or flea, because of "bruising on her shoulders"!.!

Hurrah :-)

I have to say it all seems somewhat unlikely to me.

I guessed that.
What do you think happened, John
Remember no assumptions, stay with what we have.

[Batman]

In my universe holding a soft pack of cigarettes (the ones where you tear away the top exposing them) takes my whole hand and rest on my little finger. The more you smoke, the less they are packed, the greater the chances of one spilling out if I turn my hand upside down.

If I release my little finger, ring finger and middle finger, low and behold it is still in my hand between my thumb and forefinger. There is no need for any magical floating of the pack to get from position one to the other.

Jump around, sometimes a cigarette pops out, sometimes not. Asking someone to pull the packet out of you hand. Sometimes they pop out. Sometimes not.

The idea that a packet needs to float somewhere from a strong grip to a relaxed grip is a straw red herring up in flames on the bbq.

[Jon Guy]

Exactly, which is what I was alluding to with Jon Guy. I can fully understand the mechanics of her holding on to the cachous as she dies, cadaveric spasm, and all that.
But not when being thrown about, pushed or pulled, and cast down to the ground. The natural instinct is to use your hands to break your fall, which supersedes any instinct to hold onto a packet of cachous - to my way of thinking anyway.
I'm sure any normal person would have let go of whatever they had in their hands, as they use their hands to break their fall.

Hi Jon

I appreciate you are going with your own experiences regarding the above.

But did you know that it`s quite easy to make a fist around something held in your hand, it will even bolster the strength of your fist. Some naughty, aggressive people actually hold things in their fist when fighting.

Also, as Batman has repeatedly posted, it`s very easy to use the heel of your palm to break a fall. In fact, some contact sports like judo or aikido encourage this, as it`s very easy to break a wrist falling on an open hand.

But the bottom line is that if you don`t want to drop something, you don`t.
Which is obviously what Stride did.

[John G]

Hi Jon

I appreciate you are going with your own experiences regarding the above.

But did you know that it`s quite easy to make a fist around something held in your hand, it will even bolster the strength of your fist. Some naughty, aggressive people actually hold things in their fist when fighting.

Also, as Batman has repeatedly posted, it`s very easy to use the heel of your palm to break a fall. In fact, some contact sports like judo or aikido encourage this, as it`s very easy to break a wrist falling on an open hand.

But the bottom line is that if you don`t want to drop something, you don`t.
Which is obviously what Stride did.

But were the cacous he'd in her hand ? I thought they were held between thumb and forefinger. How is it physically possible to make a fist whilst gripping something between thumb and forefinger? I would have thought that the natural thing to do when trying to break a fall would be to open the whole hand and spread your fingers, unless we're considering extreme possibilities.

[Harry D]

Liz Stride was quite literally dying to have those breath mints.

[lynn cates]

Maybe this?

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Perhaps you mean that originally Liz had her thumb and ALL fingers around the cachous? Very well. But how does that alter the fact that IF she were thrown to the ground, the cachous would have spilled?

Cheers.
LC