The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[lynn cates]

thought experiment

Hello Batman.

"upright spinal bipedal posture."

Rather like an ape, then? (heh-heh)

Seriously, her hand relaxing did NOT cause the cachous to levitate upward from her palm. Don't believe me? Lie on your left side (no, I said LEFT, not right--that's better), arm under you. Put thumb and forefinger together.

Now, where is that in relation to your palm? (If you get the answer wrong, we'll consult that ape. (heh-heh))

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Batman.

"upright spinal bipedal posture."

Rather like an ape, then? (heh-heh)

Like? What do you think we are? Aliens? Ghosts? Angels? We ARE apes. See "Hominidae". The point is living things have biochemical energy that is used to hold things. Ants do it. Birds do it. Humans too. BTW, just a small point, Newtonian mechanics has time as a constant, which is wrong, so gravitation is replaced with General Relativity which we call GR for short. Anyway living things can produce forces that impact gravitational ones.

Seriously, her hand relaxing did NOT cause the cachous to levitate upward from her palm. Don't believe me? Lie on your left side (no, I said LEFT, not right--that's better), arm under you. Put thumb and forefinger together.

huh?

Blackwell - The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

Phillips - The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter. I took them from the hand and gave them to Dr. Blackwell.

Blackwell [recalled] (who assisted in making the post-mortem examination) said: I can confirm Dr. Phillips as to the appearances at the mortuary. I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand. My impression is that the hand gradually relaxed while the woman was dying, she dying in a fainting condition from the loss of blood.

So let your three fingers relax instead of your forefinger and thumb. Hey presto! No magic needed. No levitation.

The doctor pulls them out and spills them.

Again Conan Doyle might jump from a missing pink handbag to Moriarty did it, but then again he believed in fairies... so go figure

Do dying people through trauma hold onto things? Not in Conan Doyles universe, but in ours, hell yeah.

[John G]

I don`t think so, as I know she was in the front room on the ground floor.

Statement of Mrs Diemshitz:

"Just about one clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up until then I had not heard a sound -not even a whisper." You can find this quote on the Casebook site, reference Morning Advertiser, 2 October, 1888. It is the same reference I referred you to last time.

Turning to the spilled cachous:

Foreman of the Jury: "Do you think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before her injuries were inflicted?"

Dr Phillips: "That is an inference that the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw."

There were a few cachous found near Stride, but that is easily explained: Dr Blackwell: "It was I who split them removing them from her hand."

I have posed these questions already to Batman, but they're worth repeating:

How does Stride hold onto the cachous, without spilling any, as BS man tries to pull her into the street?

How does she hold onto the cachous , without spilling any, as he spins her around?

How does she hold onto the cachous, without spilling any, as he throws her onto the footway?

You argue that Stride herself lead BS man into the yard herself? Is it really likely, considering the Ripper scare, that she would lead, into a pitch black passage a man who has just assaulted her? Would she be relaxed enough to eat the cachous in the presence of such a man?

You state that BS man wasn't aware that he was being watched? Well that clearly makes him even more stupid! Not an organized, subtle murderer like JtR at all.

You refer to Stride not screaming very loudly. Why did she not scream whilst in the passage? After all, BS man was clearly an intoxicated, stumbling fool, who was injudicious enough to attack on Stride on the street. Do you seriously think such a person would have the composure, and the skill, to take Stride completely unaware, leaving her completely oblivious to the danger she was in, merrily eating the cachous, to the extent that she puts no struggle, nor apparently makes a sound. Or at least not one heard by Mrs D, in the kitchen with the window open! In fact, even Morris Eagle said that he was sure that he would have heard a cry of "murder". Not surprising when he believe he stated all the windows to the club were open.

And do you seriously think that such a drunken fool, who took no precautions when attacking Stride in the street, would be forensically aware enough to cut Stride's throat, whilst avoiding arterial spray.

[John G]

Because as stated at inquest the hand was relaxing post mortem from a clenched grip.

She held the sweets with a tight grip. That's all.

Again this isn't a bit of paper on the end of a plank that gets knocked and as Abby stated she isn't holding a champaign tower either.

This is living biological person with lots of adaptations to counter gravity. For example, upright spinal bipedal posture.

As this refers to Stride post mortem, are you now suggesting that she was already dead, when Schwartz saw her being assaulted? I have to say that I personally think this unlikely, as she appeared quite animated at the time!

How did she avoid spilling any of the cachous during the assault witnessed by Schwartz? Why does Dr Phillips think she would have spilled the entire packet during the assault?

Have you considered the possibility that Stride was once employed as a circus juggler?

[Batman]

After all, BS man was clearly an intoxicated, stumbling fool, who was injudicious enough to attack on Stride on the street. Do you seriously think such a person would have the composure, and the skill, to take Stride completely unaware, leaving her completely oblivious to the danger she was in, to the extent that she puts no struggle, nor apparently makes a sound. Or at least not one heard by Mrs D, in the kitchen with the window open! In fact, even Morris Eagle said that he was sure that he would have heard a cry of "murder".

This is precisely why Ted Bundy got away with so much because the incapacitated guy seen with cast on his arm or leg talking to the victims before their bodies were found later, isn't capable of being the killer.

Drunks are targets for theft and that includes those who service them. Would you put it passed an unfortunately not to take advantage of a drunk person? This is Whitechapel we are talking about here. What a way for a punter to get a woman to take him somewhere dark.

Plus you are forgetting this drunk guy is well capable of putting this woman on the ground... which just happens also to be JtRs victim posture of choice before killing them.

[Batman]

As this refers to Stride post mortem, are you now suggesting that she was already dead, when Schwartz saw her being assaulted?

No, you just made that up.

What I said was holding sweets in your left hand clenched is something people do when alive. When dying they relax. Hence relaxing three figures is sufficient.

Nothing about her being dead when Schwartz saw her being assaulted.

You're just making this all too complex for yourself, honestly.

[lynn cates]

Not the same, but simian.

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Although a true Darwinist would take umbrage at the man=ape ID (perhaps you mean common ancestor?), IF I ever personally doubted the relation, all I'd need do is look at some of the reasoning on this thread. (heh-heh)

Please show me how the packet of tissue paper/cachous migrated from palm to finger/thumb. Even a sketch will suffice.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ape-x of thinking

Hello John. Great questions, but you're wasting your time. After all, one poster admits to being an ape. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello John.

"The cachous were held precariously between thumb and forefinger, and contained within some flimsy tissue. How does she avoid dropping the package, let alone spilling any, whilst being grabbed by BS Man, spun round by BS man, and thrown to the ground by BS man? I would suggest this contradicts Newton's law of gravity."

Spot on. And to claim that she spilled some denies what the doctors said. And to claim that they levitated upward from palm to thumb/finger is ludicrous.

Cheers.
LC

Ah so this is where you get the idea of levitation.

All John is saying here is that with the centrifugal forces involving items attached to the object should fly off and drop down. Which would be true if Liz Stride was a roundabout or a see-saw, but she isn't. She is a human being. One of those quite animated objects with the capacity to carry stuff around upright since we came down from the trees.

Nothing about sweets levitating upwards.

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Although a true Darwinist would take umbrage at the man=ape ID (perhaps you mean common ancestor?)...

I stopped reading there. Get a copy of The Descent of Man.

[lynn cates]

copy

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Think YOU had better get a copy. Clearly, you do not understand your own paradigm.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

evolution speaks

Hello (again) Batman. Quick search found this.

"One of the most persistent myths, however, concerns the relationship of humans to great apes, a group of primates that includes the gorilla, orangutan and chimpanzee. Someone who believes the myth will say, "If evolution exists, then humans must be descended directly from apes. Apes must have changed, step by step, into humans." This same person will often follow up with this observation: "If apes 'turned into' humans, then apes should no longer exist." Although there are several ways to attack this assertion, the bottom-line rebuttal is simple -- humans didn't descend from apes. That's not to say humans and apes aren't related, but the relationship can't be traced backward along a direct line of descent, one form morphing into another. It must be traced along two independent lines, far back into time until the two lines merge."

You SURE your degree is in biology? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

No, you just made that up.

What I said was holding sweets in your left hand clenched is something people do when alive. When dying they relax. Hence relaxing three figures is sufficient.

Nothing about her being dead when Schwartz saw her being assaulted.

You're just making this all too complex for yourself, honestly.

Dr Phillips disagrees with you. Why was she so desperately hanging on to the cachous, wrapped in a flimsy bit of tissue, during the assault as witnessed by Schwartz, to the extent that she didn't drop any? Holding on to them whilst being grabbed by BS man; holding on to them whilst being spun around; holding on to them whilst being flung to ground. Even the impact of hitting the ground didn't, apparently, dislodge a single cachous.

Maybe they were magic cachous.

[Batman]

Dr Phillips disagrees with you. Why was she so desperately hanging on to the cachous, wrapped in a flimsy bit of tissue, during the assault as witnessed by Schwartz, to the extent that she didn't drop any? Holding on to them whilst being grabbed by BS man; holding on to them whilst being spun around; holding on to them whilst being flung to ground. Even the impact of hitting the ground didn't, apparently, dislodge a single cachous.

Maybe they were magic cachous.

Show me where he disagrees and make sure you put this in the context of their return after the Jury asked them questions.

[Jon Guy]

Statement of Mrs Diemshitz:

"Just about one clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up until then I had not heard a sound -not even a whisper." You can find this quote on the Casebook site, reference Morning Advertiser, 2 October, 1888. It is the same reference I referred you to last time.

Louis Diemschutz`s inquest statement :

I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor
The Daily telegraph, Tuesday, October 2, 1888

Turning to the spilled cachous:
Foreman of the Jury: "Do you think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before her injuries were inflicted?"
Dr Phillips: "That is an inference that the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw."

And just before this question, Doctor Phillips was asked:

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? -
[Phillips] Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.

There were a few cachous found near Stride, but that is easily explained: Dr Blackwell: "It was I who split them removing them from her hand."

Yes, Stride`s left hand was over the gutter near the wall but how come they were scattered all over the yard ?

I have posed these questions already to Batman, but they're worth repeating:."

Yes, thanks. I answered them all a few posts back

You argue that Stride herself lead BS man into the yard herself?

No, I said that it was the victim who led the killer to their place of death.
In Stride`s case, I have argued that she was already standing in her place of death when BS Man approached her. Her feet were found about 3 or 4 feet away from she was standing - one good push away (which is what Schwartz saw)

Is it really likely, considering the Ripper scare, that she would lead, into a pitch black passage a man who has just assaulted her? Would she be relaxed enough to eat the cachous in the presence of such a man?

She appears to have refused the man, or at least refuses to go with him, until she is then thrown down. Can`t see any willingness on her part. Again, I answered this a few posts back earlier

You state that BS man wasn't aware that he was being watched? Well that clearly makes him even more stupid! Not an organized, subtle murderer like JtR at all.

Firstly, BS Man may not have been JTR.
Secondly, Jack the Ripper, a subtle murderer :-) You`re kidding ?

You refer to Stride not screaming very loudly. Why did she not scream whilst in the passage? .

Her windpipe had been severed.
he was choking her with her scarf
She was using her energy to free herself rather than scream like Fay Wray