The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[John G]

Hi JohnG



She was running to get away from him, toward the closest source of help-the voices of the men from the club.

Hello Abby,

But how did she avoid spilling all of the cachous? Not only during the initial assault but also as she was running into the Yard? Why did Mrs D not hear Stride running into the yard, as she was sat just feet away in the kitchen with the window open?

[Abby Normal]

Hello Lynn,

Thanks again, Lynn. Much appreciated. I think the evidence that Schwartz lied, or at the very least Stride wasn't killed by BS man, is pretty much overwhelming. However, as I've argued before, I think this actually makes it more likely she was killed by JtR, which is pretty ironic really.

There is no evidence Schwartz lied. None, not one iota.if there was, I would tend to discount him.

He had every reason for being there. Im sure the police corroborated his story, at least with his wife, and about the recent move.

Also-this is an immigrant jew-new to the country who does not speak English.

Do you really think someone like this would lie in a huge murder investigation, endangering himself and his family? I don't.

[John G]

There is no evidence Schwartz lied. None, not one iota.if there was, I would tend to discount him.

He had every reason for being there. Im sure the police corroborated his story, at least with his wife, and about the recent move.

Also-this is an immigrant jew-new to the country who does not speak English.

Do you really think someone like this would lie in a huge murder investigation, endangering himself and his family? I don't.

There's no proof that I'm aware of that Mathew Packer or George Hutchinson lied either. There evidence is questioned because it doesn't seem to accord with the other known facts, or evidence from other witnesses.

[Abby Normal]

There's no proof that I'm aware of that Mathew Packer or George Hutchinson lied either. There evidence is questioned because it doesn't seem to accord with the other known facts, or evidence from other witnesses.

there is on the police record stating Packer changed his story so much his statement was useless. There were reports in the press that hutchs statement was discredited.

Nothing at all on Schwartz.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

But how did she avoid spilling all of the cachous? Not only during the initial assault but also as she was running into the Yard? Why did Mrs D not hear Stride running into the yard, as she was sat just feet away in the kitchen with the window open?

Because she was clutching it. this is a small bag of breath mints-Not a bag of popcorn or a champaign glass pyramid.

[John G]

there is on the police record stating Packer changed his story so much his statement was useless. There were reports in the press that hutchs statement was discredited.

Nothing at all on Schwartz.

I think it's strongly implied that Schwartz's evidence was ultimately discarded, even though there was probably no actual proof. Thus, he clearly got a far better view of a suspect than Lawende, who said that he doubted he would even recognize his suspect again. So why, when it came to identifying suspects-Grainger, Saddler, Kosminksi- did the police rely on Lawende and not Schwartz?

[Abby Normal]

I think it's strongly implied that Schwartz's evidence was ultimately discarded, even though there was probably no actual proof. Thus, he clearly got a far better view of a suspect than Lawende, who said that he doubted he would even recognize his suspect again. So why, when it came to identifying suspects-Grainger, Saddler, Kosminksi- did the police rely on Lawende and not Schwartz?

I don't know. Maybe because Lawende spoke English and was more respectable class? Maybe they couldn't locate Schwartz?

[Batman]

They where different witnesses from different jurisdiction.

Scotland Yard Investigates is a great book from Evans and Rumelow.

[pinkmoon]

Hello Jason.

"Schwartz might have made the whole thing up maybe to try and get some money from a newspaper."

1. Why go to the police first?

2. Did he get money?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,wasn't he tracked down by a journalist first?

[John G]

Because she was clutching it. this is a small bag of breath mints-Not a bag of popcorn or a champaign glass pyramid.

They were held precariously in flimsy tissue paper between thumb and forefinger. How does she avoid spilling any during the assault witnessed by Schwartz? Why was so she desperate to cling on to them, at all costs, apparently? As you have pointed out, they were just cachous, not a bag of precious diamonds!

Dr Phillips was asked this question at the inquest by the foreman of the jury:
" Do you think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?

Dr Phillips gave this very sensible reply: "That is an inference the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw."

However, in stark contrast, your view is that not only would she have avoided dropping the packet entirely, but that she wouldn't have spilled any of the contents either!

Nonetheless, in the interests of thoroughness, I have decided to carry out research into whether there is any evidence that Stride was once employed as a circus juggler.

[Abby Normal]

They were held precariously in flimsy tissue paper between thumb and forefinger. How does she avoid spilling any during the assault witnessed by Schwartz? Why was so she desperate to cling on to them, at all costs, apparently? As you have pointed out, they were just cachous, not a bag of precious diamonds!

Dr Phillips was asked this question at the inquest by the foreman of the jury:
" Do you think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?

Dr Phillips gave this very sensible reply: "That is an inference the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw."

However, in stark contrast, your view is that not only would she have avoided dropping the packet entirely, but that she wouldn't have spilled any of the contents either!

Nonetheless, in the interests of thoroughness, I have decided to carry out research into whether there is any evidence that Stride was once employed as a circus juggler.

HaHa. That's funny!

im just going to end by saying many forensic experts and medical personal have noted that it is common to find people who are dead still holding something, eventhough they have been violently attacked and murdered, in horrendous car accidents etc.

I don't see why stride would be any different.

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn.

Hello Jon. I like your reconstruction. However:
"- The 'suspect' steps forward to help Stride to her feet - this is when he kills her."
This requires her to be getting her cachous in hand whilst he is west of her and helping her up.

The incidentals of where he stood make no difference in my estimate. The killer did strike her from her right side while she looked away - perhaps he turned her around to check her clothing was not soiled, then he strikes.
But, regardless, this must be when she took out, or was given the cachous.

Hello Jon.
"The killer can now strike with impunity, no-one knows he is there, and everyone will know what the man who assaulted her looked like."
Are you suggesting this was part of his plan?

No, the two men passing were likely just a fortunate distraction that he could use to his advantage, providing he stayed in the shadows.

In past years my rejection of Stride being a Ripper murder was based on the common belief that her killer was BS-man.
If there is sufficient time for another man to come on the scene, and this was her killer, then I'm not so sure anymore about excluding her.

[Wickerman]

there is on the police record stating Packer changed his story so much his statement was useless. There were reports in the press that hutchs statement was discredited.

Nothing at all on Schwartz.

Abby.

Did you forget about this?

"In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts."
Star, 2 Oct. 1888.

I'm not suggesting it is correct, or that I believe it.
I also see no reason to doubt Schwartz, I prefer to take witnesses at their word unless something materializes to indicate otherwise.
I just wondered if you dismissed that account, or perhaps forgot it.

[John G]

Hi Jon,

What's your opinion of the discrepancies between the police report and the press account? For example, in the newspaper article the second man is effectively described as an accomplice, rather than a bystander, who shouts out a warning to BS man, and then rushes forward towards Schwartz, carrying a knife. The Star also says that the attacker pushed Stride into the passage, whereas the police report says he threw her to the pavement outside the gates. Neither can this be explained away as a language problem, as Schwartz brought an interpreter with him.

It seems to me that there were fewer significant discrepancies in Hutchinson's evidence, i.e. between the press report and police report, and yet on the Hutchinson threads a number of posters seem to regard that as evidence that he lied. And of course, Sugden points out there were over 40 points of similarity in the respective Hutchinson accounts. Clearly not the case with Schwartz's accounts.

[Batman]

Did you forget about the fact Swanson followed through by saying they have no reason to doubt the story?

Where is Abberline during his Lipski investigation saying he is on a wild goose chase?

Begg correctly asserts that the hypothesis they rejected his witness account is diametrically opposed to their own actions and home office reports.