The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.

Yes, this is a fair point. Her killer could have arrived latter, and might even have been stalking Stride-if we assume he was the suspect seen by either Marshall, PC Smith, Brown, or a combination of three- and then took his chance when BS man left the scene.

However, the difficulty with this argument is that, by implication, it would require Stride to have been assaulted twice, in the space of a few minutes, by two unconnected assailants in more or less the same spot. This is clearly unlikely. And Stride would have been extremely unlucky to say the least!

Well there are assaults and then there are assaults. The whole B.S. man thing could have been simply a little bit of an altercation with a drunken customer she was trying to solicit and who took offense at her methods. Not an uncommon experience at all. No reason for Stride to move from where she was.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

However, the difficulty with this argument is that, by implication, it would require Stride to have been assaulted twice, in the space of a few minutes, by two unconnected assailants in more or less the same spot. This is clearly unlikely. And Stride would have been extremely unlucky to say the least!

Hi John.
It is worthy to note that Swanson also believed there was sufficient time after Schwartz left for Stride to meet up with another man.

I think it is also worth noting that the entry to Dutfields Yard was spoken of as very dark roughly where Stride had been standing, or immediately behind her.
Had she already been in the company of another man (the PC Smith suspect?), as BS-man approached, I wonder if it was not possible that he stepped back into the shadows while the altercation took place, not wishing to be seen.
Alternately, we are required to believe that Stride was standing there alone, she had not been alone at any time that night.

[Batman]

Lipski slur investigation

If Schwartz had been dropped as a witness sometime in October, wouldn't we expect some hint of this by Abberline when he wrote on 1st November about interrogating Schwartz?

Abberline does make reference to investigations pursued as a result of Schwartz's statement, this would have been an ideal opportunity for Abberline to mention that something was lacking in the statement given by Schwartz, had that been the case.

The home office memos contain a whole series of Schwartz-Lipski related investigations.

That's how seriously they took Schwartz.

Likewise they realized the antisemitic connections not a coincidence. Hence why they investigated it so much.

[John G]

Hi John.
It is worthy to note that Swanson also believed there was sufficient time after Schwartz left for Stride to meet up with another man.

I think it is also worth noting that the entry to Dutfields Yard was spoken of as very dark roughly where Stride had been standing, or immediately behind her.
Had she already been in the company of another man (the PC Smith suspect?), as BS-man approached, I wonder if it was not possible that he stepped back into the shadows while the altercation took place, not wishing to be seen.
Alternately, we are required to believe that Stride was standing there alone, she had not been alone at any time that night.

Hi Jon,

Very good point about Swanson's comments. And, as you rightly point out, Stride was observed ,whilst accompanied by men, by a number of witnesses throughout the night: Best and Gardner, Marshall, Brown and, of course, PC Smith.

I would also agree about the level of light in Dutfield's Yard. In fact, it was so dark Lave struggled to find the side door to get back into the club. However, I wonder why her killer would be skulking around in Dutfield's Yard during a possible altercation between Stride and BS man.

I have speculated in the past that she may have been going to the club to meet someone, i.e. Joseph Lave. Thus, we know from Lave's own evidence that he left the club around 12:35 and went as far as the gate, returning at about 12:40. A secret assignation might also explain James Brown's evidence. Thus, he saw a man with someone he was almost certain was Stride at 12:45 ( this clearly undermines Schwartz as his alleged sighting was at the same time, and Brown gave evidence at the inquest, whereas Schwartz didn't.) Interestingly, he heard the man say to the women: "No, not tonight, some other night."

Now, if we assume the woman was Stride, her rejection of the man's proposal could be because she was late for an arranged meeting at the club, i.e. with Lave. In such circumstances the man may have simply followed her. When Stride arrives at the club she realises that she's missed Lave, or whoever she was intending to meet, and therefore entered Dutfield's Yard with the intention of trying the side door. However, it's possible that Brown's suspect, who was tailing Stride, simply followed her into the Yard and killed her. In this scenario Stride was eating the cachous, sometimes used as a breath sweetener, prior to her assignation with, say, Lave.

I would stress that this is only a theory and not what I think definitely happened!

[John G]

Well there are assaults and then there are assaults. The whole B.S. man thing could have been simply a little bit of an altercation with a drunken customer she was trying to solicit and who took offense at her methods. Not an uncommon experience at all. No reason for Stride to move from where she was.

c.d.

Hello C.d.,

Yes, this is possible. And. as I noted in a previous post, there does seem to be some evidence that Dutifiled's Yard was utilized for purposes of solicitation. This might also explain Stride being in the vicinity of the club gates, i.e. she was aware of the club meeting and might have been hoping to attract clients.

Have you considered how James Brown's evidence conflicts with Schwartz's? And, of course, he gave testimony at the inquest whereas Schwartz didn't.

[John Wheat]

Even if the GSG was written by Jack, which I'm not saying it was what would it actually prove. Nothing all it says is that Jack was either Jewish or not Jewish.

[Wickerman]

I would also agree about the level of light in Dutfield's Yard. In fact, it was so dark Lave struggled to find the side door to get back into the club. However, I wonder why her killer would be skulking around in Dutfield's Yard during a possible altercation between Stride and BS man.

I don't suggest the killer was skulking around in the darkness, unknown. I suggest the killer was already with Stride. They had been standing together in Berner St. PC Smith had already passed them.

Conjecture might suggest that after PC Smith passed, Stride & the 'suspect' crossed the road to stand just inside the gates.
- BS-man staggers passed, the 'suspect' who was with Stride steps back into the darkness out of sight.
- BS-man accosts Stride thinking she is alone & soliciting on private premises.
- Schwartz passed just as BS-man casts her down, Schwartz leaves, BS-man leaves.
- The 'suspect' steps forward to help Stride to her feet - this is when he kills her.

The Smith 'suspect' intended to kill her anyway, his plans being momentarily interrupted by the passing of BS-man & Schwartz.

It's just a scenario that fits what we know about the sequence of events that night.

[John G]

I don't suggest the killer was skulking around in the darkness, unknown. I suggest the killer was already with Stride. They had been standing together in Berner St. PC Smith had already passed them.

Conjecture might suggest that after PC Smith passed, Stride & the 'suspect' crossed the road to stand just inside the gates.
- BS-man staggers passed, the 'suspect' who was with Stride steps back into the darkness out of sight.
- BS-man accosts Stride thinking she is alone & soliciting on private premises.
- Schwartz passed just as BS-man casts her down, Schwartz leaves, BS-man leaves.
- The 'suspect' steps forward to help Stride to her feet - this is when he kills her.

The Smith 'suspect' intended to kill her anyway, his plans being momentarily interrupted by the passing of BS-man & Schwartz.

It's just a scenario that fits what we know about the sequence of events that night.

Hi Jon,

Yes, I understood your meaning but probably didn't explain myself very well. My concern was why her killer would retreat into the darkness as BS Man approached. And why didn't he subsequently intervene during the altercation, i.e. in order to assist Stride? It could be argued that he was trying to avoid being noticed, but in this scenario he's already been seen by PC Smith. And by not intervening, but electing instead to hide in the Yard, wouldn't he arouse Stride's suspicion? In fact, following the incident with BS man Stride would have to be relaxed enough to take out the cachous, suggesting that she wasn't, at that stage, suspicious or unduly concerned about her killer.

Another point is whether he would have risked murdering Stride after she'd just been assaulted by BS man. In other words, wouldn't he be concerned that some of the locals may have heard the altercation, and might decide to investigate?

Regarding the sequence of events, as I noted in an earlier post James Brown's evidence conflicts with Schwartz's as he also claims to have seen Stride with a suspect at 12:45. And his evidence cannot be easily discounted because, unlike Schwartz, he appeared at the inquest.

[pinkmoon]

Schwartz might have made the whole thing up maybe to try and get some money from a newspaper.

[Wickerman]

Hi John.

...It could be argued that he was trying to avoid being noticed, but in this scenario he's already been seen by PC Smith.

True, but I think he was fortunate in that a stranger not only assaulted Stride, but was seen by a witness to assault Stride.
The killer can now strike with impunity, no-one knows he is there, and everyone will know what the man who assaulted her looked like.

....And by not intervening, but electing instead to hide in the Yard, wouldn't he arouse Stride's suspicion? In fact, following the incident with BS man Stride would have to be relaxed enough to take out the cachous, suggesting that she wasn't, at that stage, suspicious or unduly concerned about her killer.

She may well have berated him, but could he really afford to get involved? Assaulting the man in her defense can get him into trouble with the police, and he cannot risk that.

Being seen with Stride in the street is low risk, other people are usually too busy to take particular notice of everyone who they pass.
However, in a face-to-face confrontation, BS-man will recognize the face of the man who stood up to him in Dutfields Yard, which means then, he cannot kill Stride as planned. Better to step back and stay out of sight.

There are lots of different ways to interpret events that night, this is just one that strikes me as possible.

[Batman]

Blackwell is right

Blackwell: The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter. I took them from the hand and gave them to Dr. Blackwell.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
The Foreman: Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted? - That is an inference which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw.

Blackwell [recalled]: (who assisted in making the post-mortem examination) said: I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand. My impression is that the hand gradually relaxed while the woman was dying, she dying in a fainting condition from the loss of blood.

End of story. The person who removed the cachous from her hand has said how they appeared to him... as if the hand gradually relaxed while she died, i.e - she was holding tightly to them and the blood loss meant her hand could no longer maintain the full grip.

No mystery.

[lynn cates]

answer

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Run this logically by me again. . ."

Glad to. The cachous. What of the cachous? Answer?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

trust

Hello (again) Batman.

"So did the police just 'trust' him? No!"

I'll say. they doubted his story and refused to go further until they had more evidence.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sad

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Yeah, but don't take too much credit for it. It's kind of like predicting the sun will rise in the East. You just know it's going to happen."

Sigh. Sad but true.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello John. Thanks.

"I think the evidence that Schwartz lied, or at the very least Stride wasn't killed by BS man, is pretty much overwhelming. However, as I've argued before, I think this actually makes it more likely she was killed by JtR, which is pretty ironic really."

Quite.

Cheers.
LC