The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[lynn cates]

Aha!

Hello CD. Told you so. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no trespassing

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Oh well, you want to go back to the conspiracy theory. . ."

All I want to go back to are the cachous. Of course, for you, that is in "no trespassing" territory; else, your theorising would be seen as mere vapour.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Yeah have a conspiracy theory setup where they don't even hide the body despite access to carts. Just have the conspirators running around looking for police after killing her and shouting to the high heavens.

Run this logically by me again...

[John G]

Oh well, you want to go back to the conspiracy theory... You are welcome to it.

As for topic change... Look at the thread title. My position is that JtR due to his experience with Jews that night sought to implicate them. Your trying to sell your stride conspiracy theory.

I don't think there's any need for much of a conspiracy theory in relation to Stride. What's wrong with Schwartz simply lying and grabbing the cash on offer from the press? After all, a number of other "witnesses" seem to have done just that.

[Batman]

Schwartz was investigated

I don't think there's any need for much of a conspiracy theory in relation to Stride.

That's different from Lynn's alternative which he is proposing here.

What's wrong with Schwartz simply lying and grabbing the cash on offer from the press? After all, a number of other "witnesses" seem to have done just that.

Schwartz gives a valid reason for being on that street at the time and place. It isn't just someone strolling around. Its someone who is going home. In today's world if we learn someone walked home from point A to B and could be in the frame for a murder, we would be looking for that person to be interviewed.

His account involves other people. For example, his wife. Either she is collaborating in his lies or she believes he was there. It involves him physically moving home. This means there is plenty of witnesses to corroborate that. He said he arrived shortly home after, as it was his route home. If she believes he was there, then that likely places him there. You can't therefore imply he wasn't there, only he is lying about what he saw... or its a conspiracy involving his wife.

The police investigated Berner St., the club, the witnesses who came forward. Schwartz's testimony requires that he has evidence he lived somewhere else. Evidence his wife moved house. Evidence why he was passing Berner St., at that time. Evidence of where he went.

So did the police just 'trust' him? No!

You yourself have seen the journalists reporting that the police didn't trust him, but later on, Swanson reporting to the home office has found that eventually they did trust him. So what do you think happened in the meantime?

Now we have more witnesses in his statement. Pipeman. We have Swanson talking about him and papers talking about not just some arrests, but many arrests and 'others' just thinking it was a couple having a quarrel.

Schwartz is quite well supported and there seems to have been plenty of activity on Berner St. to empower that.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Told you so. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Yeah, but don't take too much credit for it. It's kind of like predicting the sun will rise in the East. You just know it's going to happen.

c.d.

[John G]

Hello John. Excellent questions and observations.

However, you may be wasting your time.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Thanks again, Lynn. Much appreciated. I think the evidence that Schwartz lied, or at the very least Stride wasn't killed by BS man, is pretty much overwhelming. However, as I've argued before, I think this actually makes it more likely she was killed by JtR, which is pretty ironic really.

[Wickerman]

... to Kelly screaming murder, Heard by neighbours. however, this was between 3:30 and 4:00am. This creates something of a problem as Dr Bond believes that she died sometime between 1:00am and 2:00am. He also thinks that she was probably asleep at the time.

Hi John.
I suspect Dr. Bond was judging the scene using his own sense of bedroom etiquette. The fact Kelly was only wearing her chemise in his view indicates to Bond that she had retired to bed for the night.

In reality the women of Kelly's class would sleep in their clothes. This was the case admitted by Prater, Cox, Vanturney, Lewis & Kennedy. Also, Kelly's financial situation might indicate she was in no position to waste money on buying kindling for a fire.
The fact she was found dead in her underclothes, and the fire was lit suggests to me she was entertaining when she was murdered.

These conclusions are more likely to be adopted by a detective than a medical man.

[Wickerman]

...I think the evidence that Schwartz lied, or at the very least Stride wasn't killed by BS man, is pretty much overwhelming. However, as I've argued before, I think this actually makes it more likely she was killed by JtR, which is pretty ironic really.

Can I ask, how do you interpret Swanson's later view, of the 19th, which suggests that Schwartz was believed?

[John G]

Hi John.
I suspect Dr. Bond was judging the scene using his own sense of bedroom etiquette. The fact Kelly was only wearing her chemise in his view indicates to Bond that she had retired to bed for the night.

In reality the women of Kelly's class would sleep in their clothes. This was the case admitted by Prater, Cox, Vanturney, Lewis & Kennedy. Also, Kelly's financial situation might indicate she was in no position to waste money on buying kindling for a fire.
The fact she was found dead in her underclothes, and the fire was lit suggests to me she was entertaining when she was murdered.

These conclusions are more likely to be adopted by a detective than a medical man.

Hi Jon,

Yes, to be fair I think we need to be extremely cautious when accepting estimates of time of death in the Kelly case. In this regard I was probably being a little unfair to Batman, although I think cries of "oh murder" are no better guide as such cries were considered common place.

I think we should also remember that the crime scene, and estimates of time of death, were assessed by Victorian GPs, not a modern CSI team.

[John G]

Can I ask, how do you interpret Swanson's later view, of the 19th, which suggests that Schwartz was believed?

Hi Jon,

I think that the police had no particular reason, at such an early stage of the investigation, to disbelieve Schwartz. However, there is little evidence that he was subsequently utilised, I.e in respect of identifying suspects, so confidence in Schwartz may not have lasted long. And wouldn't Schwartz have have been a far better candidate than Lawende for subsequent identifications, ie. Grainger, Saddler, Kosminski, if we assume the police had long-term confidence in his evidence?

I would reject Schwartz's evidence for two reasons. Firstly, it is incompatible with Lynn's cachous argument, discussed at length in this thread. Secondly, I believe that Stride's murder was extremely audacious in its execution, which for me provides a significant link to the other C5 murders, and suggests a far more cunning murderer than a drunken fool like BS man.

[c.d.]

Can I ask, how do you interpret Swanson's later view, of the 19th, which suggests that Schwartz was believed?

I would be much more inclined to accept a conspiracy theory if this had been the first murder in the series. Why take a chance with a made up story that could blow up in your face in which case you really have problems? Why not simply cooperate fully with the police which is apparently what they did?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Jon,

I think that the police had no particular reason, at such an early stage of the investigation, to disbelieve Schwartz. However, there is little evidence that he was subsequently utilised, I.e in respect of identifying suspects, so confidence in Schwartz may not have lasted long.

I would reject Schwartz's evidence for two reasons. Firstly, it is incompatible with the cachous argument, discussed at length in this thread. Secondly, I believe that Stride's murder was extremely audacious in its execution, which for me provides a significant link to the other C5 murders, which suggests a far more cunning murderer then a drunken fool like BS man.

Hello John,

Schwartz never said he saw Stride being murdered or that the B.S. man was her murderer so the cachous argument is moot in that respect.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

You yourself have seen the journalists reporting that the police didn't trust him, but later on, Swanson reporting to the home office has found that eventually they did trust him. So what do you think happened in the meantime?

If Schwartz had been dropped as a witness sometime in October, wouldn't we expect some hint of this by Abberline when he wrote on 1st November about interrogating Schwartz?

Abberline does make reference to investigations pursued as a result of Schwartz's statement, this would have been an ideal opportunity for Abberline to mention that something was lacking in the statement given by Schwartz, had that been the case.

[John G]

Hello John,

Schwartz never said he saw Stride being murdered or that the B.S. man was her murderer so the cachous argument is moot in that respect.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

Yes, this is a fair point. Her killer could have arrived latter, and might even have been stalking Stride-if we assume he was the suspect seen by either Marshall, PC Smith, Brown, or a combination of three- and then took his chance when BS man left the scene.

However, the difficulty with this argument is that, by implication, it would require Stride to have been assaulted twice, in the space of a few minutes, by two unconnected assailants in more or less the same spot. This is clearly unlikely. And Stride would have been extremely unlucky to say the least!