The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Dane_F]

Hello Dane.

"But wasn't the entire first reply based around the idea that he wanted to get the blood and feces off asap as to not be detected? So now we have him walking nearly a mile first before stopping to clean up.


Don't you see how many leaps we have to make to continue down this chain of events?"

Quite. Well reasoned.

Now extrapolate for the entire case . . .

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn and thank you.

I wish I could extrapolate for the entire case. Unfortunately if I could do that then you all would probably have another book writer on your hands. Instead I prefer to read the research of others and discuss. For as many years as I've read and investigated about JTR, I don't even have a suspect I believe in yet.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Lynn and thank you.

I wish I could extrapolate for the entire case. Unfortunately if I could do that then you all would probably have another book writer on your hands. Instead I prefer to read the research of others and discuss. For as many years as I've read and investigated about JTR, I don't even have a suspect I believe in yet.

Ive taken much the same approach myself Dane, Im not here to promote anything...and most definitely not a "suspect". What I find most difficult to overcome are preconceptions,... or when it comes to interpreting spoken or written English language or specific events or actions, some reasonable and rational explanations.

In this particular case we do have within known published data some evidence that many people choose not to use.....we apparently have a delay in the placement of the cloth, one that exceeds what could be considered reasonable time for the killer to have reached that entranceway off Goulston if coming directly from the murder scene.

That little bit of evidence suggests that the killer had somewhere to go locally indoors, that he may have dropped off the organs in spirits to preserve them...as the organ section examined by Openshaw apparently had been, and that the killer then returned to the streets to place the apron section at the Model Homes where it was found...almost directly under some chalk writing about Juwes.

Is it really plausible that the killer just came upon this writing and arbitrarily thought he would accent it with the cloth? A cloth containing both feces and blood from a murder under investigation at that time? One he specifically took back out to do something with? Did he intend to simply dispose of it? Apparently not, he has had ample time by then to have found a bin and tossed it away and hasn't. He chose to take it back out when he could have stayed in and perhaps burned it...or perhaps coveted it.

My feeling is that his choosing to take the cloth back out when it doesnt seem prudent or necessary was because he wanted to leave it somewhere specific...so I don't see his accidentally finding the writing and then just re-writing his plan. I believe he chose that spot because the residents were almost exclusively Jewish in the Model Homes there, andthats why I believe he also wrote the message himself. Accusing Jews of evading blame....on a night when Immigrant Socialist Jews were doing that very thing, conjuring up a Ripper to explain the dead woman on their property.

Ergo, I do not believe both women were killed by the same man...I think the man that killed Kate believed that the Berner Street Jewish men killed Stride...how he learned of the murder I do not know, but there were people scurrying about on the street, and Im sure, passing along any news. He could have heard what happened after he left the square on the street, and formulated his plan back at whatever hidey hole he went to.

This explanation offers us one interesting tidbit.....if 2 unconnected men killed the Canonical Double Event victims, its likely that only those men would know they only killed one of them.

Maybe Kates killer objected to people using this spectre to avoid blame for things that they themselves had done. Ive heard of killers being pissed when others claim victims of theirs as their own...that's a possibility too.

This seems reasonable to me, it explains the GSG, who wrote it and why, why it was written where it was, and why the cloth was found beneath it. I think the idea of dropping the organs off quickly might fit well with the Lusk package and letter....maybe that organ was in spirits since Kates murder.

If you accept this premise, most wont, but if you do, you have to ask yourself.... with the introduction of defamatory propaganda and threating packages, does this really resemble serial killings, or acts of terrorism?

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

That's certainly the rub isn't it? Because the apron WAS found with it.

The significance of the graffiti is far less to me than the actual apron being found there. Jack could have chosen to toss the apron anywhere sooner or burned it or even kept it (all safer options), instead he tosses it in this doorway with this message.

Hi Dane
Ive alsways felt he used the apron to "sign" the message, but if the two are unrelated I favor the idea that he cut himself and used the apron as a temp bandage as he fled the scene.

[Batman]

In terms of value the inquest findings had rebuked the force for not doing handwriting comparisons which Swanson followed up on by interviewing those who saw the graffiti. He drew a negative based on their memory.

The apron is significant. It could not have been for cleaning as Eddowes clothes could have been used. It may have been used to carry organs. Since none where found it makes no sense to dump just the apron.

Therefore unless he carried organs somehow else we are led to believe he did something with them. This could account for a bolt hole used in the missing time.

If so, the choice to place the apron at Goulston st., was a conscious decision. We need look no further than JtR who would have been aware of where he placed it and certainly not under someone else's graffiti work, especially if one accepts JtR communicated with the press/police/Lusk, etc.

If JtR put the apron there he put the graffiti also.

[Harry D]

Bottom line is that whether or not the Ripper wrote the graffiti, it cannot possibly be considered a clue, because it doesn't tell us anything. The apron, maybe, because it helps us to track his movements, but the graffiti itself is essentially worthless. It's just a piece of anti-semitic graffiti scrawled in the doorway of a Jewish building. That's why I have my doubts that the killer wrote it, because it had nothing to do with the murder. It wasn't exactly 'Death to Pigs' was it?

[Dane_F]

Bottom line is that whether or not the Ripper wrote the graffiti, it cannot possibly be considered a clue, because it doesn't tell us anything. The apron, maybe, because it helps us to track his movements, but the graffiti itself is essentially worthless. It's just a piece of anti-semitic graffiti scrawled in the doorway of a Jewish building. That's why I have my doubts that the killer wrote it, because it had nothing to do with the murder. It wasn't exactly 'Death to Pigs' was it?

Because we have a limited understanding and cannot see the significance of something does not make it worthless. The GSG is possible the only communication JTR ever had. I find it hard to believe you cannot see the value in having that.

[Abby Normal]

Bottom line is that whether or not the Ripper wrote the graffiti, it cannot possibly be considered a clue, because it doesn't tell us anything. The apron, maybe, because it helps us to track his movements, but the graffiti itself is essentially worthless. It's just a piece of anti-semitic graffiti scrawled in the doorway of a Jewish building. That's why I have my doubts that the killer wrote it, because it had nothing to do with the murder. It wasn't exactly 'Death to Pigs' was it?

Hi Harry
Im starting to think you might be the most minimalistic person on this board! Nothing is related, everything is all just a bunch of endless coincidences. everything is random and meaningless. lalalala. ; )

Bottom line is that whether or not the Ripper wrote the graffiti, it cannot possibly be considered a clue, because it doesn't tell us anything.

Sure it can.
It tells us possibly that the killer was a gentile and not a jew.
And at the very least you could compare handwriting.

The apron, maybe, because it helps us to track his movements, but the graffiti itself is essentially worthless.

If its so worthless, why did it cause so much controversy when it was erased and "settle the hash" of Warren?

It's just a piece of anti-semitic graffiti scrawled in the doorway of a Jewish building. That's why I have my doubts that the killer wrote it, because it had nothing to do with the murder.

Nothing to do with the murder? eventhough the killer knew he was interrupted and/or spotted by no less than five jews? One who pissed him off so much he called him another anti-semetic slur-"Lipski!"?

It wasn't exactly 'Death to Pigs' was it?

[/

Again its moot what we today THINK he should have written. It was clear to him and apparently clear enough to the police at the time.

[Wickerman]

Incredibly small though, for a bragging killer, more like a whisper than a shout.

[John G]

I'm undecided, which is why I haven't voted! However, two things concern me. Firstly, I think the message is pretty vague, otherwise we wouldn't still be arguing the point, and certainly can't be directly connected to JtR. Secondly, these kind of statements, like the Ripper letters, are generally very untypical of serial killers.

[Dane_F]

Incredibly small though, for a bragging killer, more like a whisper than a shout.

Isnt there some discussion about the actual size of it? I remember reading as much earlier in this thread where some people think they just used the incorrect mark and instead of 3/4" it was meant 3-4" which would make the writings a decent size. I always just assumed that is what they originally meant since I don't think it'd have been too hard to hide a 3/4" writing to take a picture. Or perhaps he thought the bloody apron was all the bragging he needed.

If only we had a picture of it to clear up some of the confusion.

[c.d.]

Hi Harry
Im starting to think you might be the most minimalistic person on this board! Nothing is related, everything is all just a bunch of endless coincidences. everything is random and meaningless. lalalala. ; )



Sure it can.
It tells us possibly that the killer was a gentile and not a jew.
And at the very least you could compare handwriting.


If its so worthless, why did it cause so much controversy when it was erased and "settle the hash" of Warren?



Nothing to do with the murder? eventhough the killer knew he was interrupted and/or spotted by no less than five jews? One who pissed him off so much he called him another anti-semetic slur-"Lipski!"?

[/

Again its moot what we today THINK he should have written. It was clear to him and apparently clear enough to the police at the time.

I personally think Harry is one of the most clear minded posters on these boards and his posts are almost always spot on.

The GSG can tell us that the killer was a Gentile rather than a Jew or it could tell us that the killer was a Jew rather than a Gentile or it could possibly have been a Jew posing as a Gentile or a Gentile posing as a Jew. Take your pick.

Schwartz was said to have a very distinct Jewish appearance so the slur of Lipski certainly follows. Much more appropriate that "Mick" or "Wop." So that hardly seems significant. Also, did the Ripper know he had been spotted and that they were Jews?

What exactly did the police at the time think the message meant? And if anyone thinks the GSG is so significant, please tell us what you think it means and what conclusions you think we can draw from it.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I personally think Harry is one of the most clear minded posters on these boards and his posts are almost always spot on.

c.d.

so do I. We just have been disagreeing lately. No bigee.

[c.d.]

No harm in disagreeing. It's what makes these boards interesting.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Isnt there some discussion about the actual size of it? I remember reading as much earlier in this thread where some people think they just used the incorrect mark and instead of 3/4" it was meant 3-4" which would make the writings a decent size. I always just assumed that is what they originally meant since I don't think it'd have been too hard to hide a 3/4" writing to take a picture. Or perhaps he thought the bloody apron was all the bragging he needed.

If only we had a picture of it to clear up some of the confusion.

That interpretation has been offered, but the size was spoken aloud in court, and "three-quarters" doesn't sound anything like "three-to-four, inches".

Incidentally, the Daily News worded it a little different.
"The capitals would be under an inch high, and italics in proportion."

So, no actual numbers are given, yet the interpretation is the same.

On the other hand, this detail was not recorded by the Court in the Coroner's version, it appears only in the press.
In some respects it surprises me that someone has not tried to dismiss it as a fiction invented by the press, as I am sure you are aware that 'some' prefer to do.

[Dane_F]

That interpretation has been offered, but the size was spoken aloud in court, and "three-quarters" doesn't sound anything like "three-to-four, inches".

Incidentally, the Daily News worded it a little different.
"The capitals would be under an inch high, and italics in proportion."

So, no actual numbers are given, yet the interpretation is the same.

On the other hand, this detail was not recorded by the Court in the Coroner's version, it appears only in the press.
In some respects it surprises me that someone has not tried to dismiss it as a fiction invented by the press, as I am sure you are aware that 'some' prefer to do.

Yes, so it seems even the size of the writing is covered in controversy due to the lack of actual information we have on it.

The fact the size is not mentioned in court records, I think, goes a long way in doing just what you said which is makes it where you have to question exactly what was said, if anything.

At the end of the day the most important part to me is that the police felt it a big enough threat that it needed to be washed away.

I suppose this is why well over 125 years later there is still so much to discuss about this case.